During my Catholic elementary education I was taught that one should die rather than deny their religion. Being true to God is more important that life itself.

I still believe that.

Posted by DADvocate at August 29, 2006 12:25 PM

My understanding is that forced conversions to Islam are valid and binding under Sharia. This means that if either of these gentlemen attempt to repudiate their conversion or deviate from following Islam, they are subject to fatwa and death for apostasy.

But of course, they were released unharmed.

Posted by civil truth at August 29, 2006 12:41 PM

What?!?! Is this a real complaint? The NY Times used the word "unharmed" to described the two released captives even though they were forced to "convert." The Times was obviously (so obviously that you have to be intentionally obtuse to miss it) speaking of bodily harm. And they reported the conversion incident so you can decide for yourself how you feel about what the kidnappers did. Anyone who is kidnapped and held by people who might very well kill them is mentally harmed. It's a harmful and distressing experience. Being forced to convert - a conversion that I'm certain was merely an act of mimery for these captives - isn't nearly as traumatic as being kidnapped at gun point. And yet this is some how taken as evidence of they NY Times anti-religious or anti-Christian bias. Crazy.

Posted by Mavis Beacon at August 29, 2006 03:35 PM

Mavis, I wouldn't limit the "harm" to bodily harm, as you said, they were harmed in a multitude of ways. Not the least of which is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to convert to a different religion. I don't consider the NY Times to be, in this case at any rate, anti-Christian or anti-religious, just stupid! The multitude of "harms" should have been obvious to the author of the article, and a different phrase used.

Would you have defended say... Creepoid Trent Lott for his econmium of Strom Thurmond!... me neither. It was a stupid remark and deserved the lambasting he got.

When we make an egregious remark in an article to be published, we deserve to be called on it... the NYTimes deserves the lamblasting they are getting.

Posted by GM at August 29, 2006 04:23 PM

Civil Truth is absolutely correct:

"My understanding is that forced conversions to Islam are valid and binding under Sharia. This means that if either of these gentlemen attempt to repudiate their conversion or deviate from following Islam, they are subject to fatwa and death for apostasy."

Once the Five Pillars are recited--even if only as part of an exercise in school--if a Muslim hears that recitation, the "conversion" is binding.

Allah looks on the outward appearance, Yahweh and Jesus look on the heart.

Posted by Always On Watch at August 30, 2006 05:06 AM

In Christianity and Judaism, "martyrdom" means dying for your beliefs. In Islam, it means that -- plus taking others with you, i.e., "murderdom."

Posted by Jeremayakovka at August 31, 2006 12:17 AM

The comment by "Rich" at 3:45pm nailed it. I'll paraphrase: Since many liberals have replaced spiritual beliefs with political beliefs, perhaps they'd "get it" if they were forced by gunpoint to say they loved George Bush or that abortion is murder.

Mavis, as clearly noted at "allthingsbeautiful", "It's not really bias, as much as it is the blind spots imposed by any ideology." Sounds simple to me. Since they were physically unharmed - all's well! There are emotional and psychological scars that are always conveniently ignored, but "They were fed well!" Their forced conversion is simply brushed aside as irrelevant or of no great importance. Had they been killed and been true Christians then they firmly believe they will have a lot to answer for in the afterlife.

I can't speak for Centanni or Wiig or their level of faith or if they have any at all, but this goes to the very core of one who "believes" in another faith. Our time on earth is limited, but to many, what comes after is an eternity and is paramount over all else. What these people did is an abomination and should be condemned by reasonable people. Especially since their "conversion" is considered valid by the larger Muslim world.

Posted by Oyster at August 31, 2006 08:04 AM