September 21, 2005
European Wants End of U.S. - History Lesson to Follow [UPDATED]
When Woody or I get a comment from a reader, and if we recognize that they may be a first time commenter, and if we have time we always try to send them an e-mail thanking them for commenting and inviting them back. This entry will be a change from the usual.
Our commenter, in a comment that was held in moderation is from the Netherlands and goes by the name of Dagon (which by the way is from mythology to whit: The chief god of the ancient Philistines, represented as half-man and half-fish.) Dagon did an internet search for “Larry Northern†and GM’s Corner came up number 9 overall in a Google search. There were other blogs ahead of ours, three to be specific and 5 news sources. The blogs: Crooks and Liars a decidedly lefty blog at which he did not leave a comment (or if he did it was still in moderation when I looked); also at Truthout.org also a left leaning site with no comments; and FreeRepublic a decidedly rightish forum where Dagon left no comment and then to our little blog where he dropped this little bon mot:
Despite all the disgusting chauvinism (nationalism) the U.S. exhibits, from the outside it looks more and more that country is irreconcilably divided, up to the point of slowly but certainly marching towards a civil war.Oh my goodness, the sky is falling, the sky is falling, the end is near!!Give it a good financial crisis. Give it oil costing more than, say, 120$ a barrel. Give it a few lynchings, dollars being dumped by all foreign nations, a yanquis having to work in the local Mac franchise, the pop of a housing bubble, a few corporate schandals [sic], maybe even another little natural disaster...
I'm sure you get soldiers occupying big cities. Detainment camps. Government buildings on fire. Massive looting. Riots. Race riots. Poverty riots. And that'll lead to right and "left" going into a feeding frenzy and attacking each other.
It'll be the end of an empire US, and good riddance.
Well, first, Dagon doesn’t understand the hearts and minds of Americans though he probably thinks he does. . He does admit that he's from the outside, so that's understandable. On the other hand, he is from “Old Europe†and as such has probably been infected with the euro-wienie attitude that they are always right, and the USA is always wrong and a bunch of “cowboys†to boot. We fight among ourselves, but when faced with strife of significant import (WWI, WWII, Korea, etc) come to mind we bond strongly. Sometimes those bonds fray at the edges such as in Vietnam, Bosnia and Iraq. Dagon can't distinguish the "noise" going to the outside from the reality of what exists on the inside. He HEARS jackhammers destroying which he says is bad, while we SEE our people working together to build roads and add and replace office towers, which is progress in building our nation and correcting wrongs when we find them. In fact, our constitution has an honored place in the writings of man because it allows government by the people, but is not so tied to a system that is easily perverted. To understand that, merely look at the ups and downs of various governments in “Old Europe†and the effect those beliefs have had on mankind. For example, fascism is a product of the looseness of governing style prevalent in Europe in the early part of the 20th Century. The Netherlands had true empire stretching over much of the world, far more than say an upstart nation such as the USA. Netherlands were also early traders in slaves. What say you to that Dagon?
To his points, first, why is nationalism (patriotism) disgusting? Is it because it holds this country together, and the writer doesn't want that? Let us go a little further. The term Chauvinism comes from Nicolas Chauvin:
Nicolas Chauvin (possibly b. Rochefort , France , c. 1790 ) was a semi-mythical soldier and patriot who served in the First Army of the French Republic and subsequently in La Grande Armee of Napoleon Bonaparte . His name formed the origin of the term chauvinism .So, to be called Chauvinistic because you are patriotic is a good thing, not the derisive term it has come to mean by those who use the word and don’t really know it’s meaning in spite of maybe knowing it’s definition.
He enlisted at age 18, and served honorably and well. He is known to have been wounded 17 times in his nation's service, resulting in his severe disfigurement and maiming. For his loyalty and dedication, Napoleon himself presented the soldier with the Saber of Honor and a pension of 200 francs.
Chauvin's distinguished record of service and his love and devotion for Napoleon, which endured despite the price he willingly paid for them, earned him only ridicule and derision in post-Napoleonic France . The nation had lost its earlier idealism, and passionate nationalism was less in vogue.
He doesn't understand the strength and will of America. We have survived wars for independence for ourselves and freedom for others. When the chips are down, we don't give up. We have survived and come back from deep depressions. We are not too proud to accept any work because all work is noble though too many of us have come to depend on government for our sustenance we don’t have the cradle to grave socialism found in many “Non Chauvinistic†European countries. Germany for example is rapidly going broke because of their social support system and they are so addicted to it, they didn’t know who to vote for in their elections only this last weekend. My mother (Woody speaking here) told me about PhD's selling apples during the depression. I actually knew rocket scientists in Huntsville who literally went to work FOR McDonald’s after the moon landings and budget cuts at NASA. We do what we have to do and for the most part we do it. We've been through OPEC's price gouging in the 1970's and made it. We've had corporate and political scandals, we've had natural disasters, we've had race riots...in fact, there's not many problems that someone can name that we haven't fought--and WON or are in the process of winning. He can't name anything that we haven't faced and handled, and we do it on our own without outside help. True, a number of countries have offered help following Hurricane Katrina, but they were pretty slow to do it compared to the US response to the tsunami and we were called “stingy†for that. When in actuality, we did far more than many other nations to provide relief to those folk.
He has fantasies of soldiers occupying cities, detainment camps, and anarchy. We are a nation of laws and give the greatest freedoms to people anywhere. People choose to come here to live rather than people here choosing to leave or overthrow our government. He's dreaming, nah, I take that back, he is having a nighmare.
He calls us an empire. He doesn't know what an empire is. We don't capture other nations, we don't take their resources for our use through force and without compensation, we don't send occupying armies throughout the globe when we and the world defeated the Axis in WWII we helped rebuild their countries, economies and instituted democratic forms of government which for the most part still stand. The fact that Dagon doesn’t salute a swastika and have German as his native tongue is in large part due to the men at arms of the United States. His sneer doesn’t hold water and is really counter productive. We are invited to have overseas forces and we pay for the military installations where we are based. Other nations see us as stabilizing rather than threatening.
If the term “empire†can be used in any way, the U.S. can best be compared to the Roman Empire--only because there are some parallels in our systems and destiny. Some of which he describes did happen to them (if looked at from their time) and might happen to us, but much will never happen.
There will be no civil war between right and left. (Wouldn't the left turn in all of their guns because they hate the second amendment? What would they use to fight..."spitballs," as Zell Miller asked?) However, the country, like Rome, could divide into factions, but not two groups at war with each other. If we learn from history, we can avoid that.
What problems do occur in our country, outside of natural disasters, is the ultimate result of human nature--not because of our nation's character and systems. What happened to Rome is a problem with ALL governments, including that of the country from which the commenter posts. Man, separated from God, turns to evil. That is why we stand up for having God in our pledge, on our coins, and in our government. While we don't have a national religion as many countries do, we recognize that God has been a historical bond and guiding light for us. Without God, man too often becomes a pseudo-god himself and destroys. The ACLU and others want power and want it without God, and if they prevail, that would be the end of this country as we know it today, but not the end of the country or most of it’s ideals. That's a big struggle and where we are at greatest risk.
Before he says good riddance to our nation, he better think about all that we have done for the world. We're the most generous nation on Earth and give more to help others. We protect the innocent and fight tyranny. We send food and medicine to starving nations. We're inventive and hard-working, and the world benefits from our innovations. Many life saving medicines, consumer goods etc have come out of our space exploration efforts. Like it or not, we've become the "daddy" of the world, and this commenter sounds like an unappreciative child who rebels--but, when he grows up, he'll come back and see his folly. He should be thanking us rather than kicking us, and I don't think that he would like to see what the world would be like without the United States of America.
The link to this post will be e-mailed to Dagon, I ask that any and all of our regular readers leave a comment regarding his charges. Dagon, read them yourself and respond as you will.
GM & Woody
September 21, 2005
UPDATE:
The commenter referenced in this entry has offered a lengthy and polite rebuttal in the comment section. Since he has taken the time to do that and since he makes some interesting points, it is worth a read and possible response. We appreciate polite and sincere exchanges of views.
Posted by GM Roper at September 21, 2005 08:30 PM | TrackBackAww GM and Woody..so well put. America is here to stay and it's time the world accepts this. We are a great nation with even greater people, who are compassionate and caring, yet don't cross us too many times. We do come together when times get tough. We do prevail in crisis and war. Our economy is better than anything else the world has to offer. And we are still the shining city on top of the hill...many foreigners aspire to be like us. We don't hear about them from the MSM...
Europe is still living in the golden era I think LOL
Rock on GM and Woody!! America sure will!!
Posted by Raven at September 21, 2005 09:57 PM
Awesome job, and research too. I didn't know where the term chauvinistic came from. I learned something today!
Yes, America does come together when it counts, we may bicker like brothers and sisters, but deep down our patriotism and belief in freedom unite us all, except for socialist commies...they can go to hell. And if there ever is a civil war, I will be ready!
Posted by Jay at September 21, 2005 10:21 PM
Dagon? Have you learned anything today? Being from old europe, and having been, I am sure, spoon-fed the socialist dreams of europe and the line about America being evil I know you have no clue what we are about.
I think maybe it is time to put down the rags you read at home and do some research about America, with all of the propaganda you have been taught all of your life.
Great post guys.
Posted by Kender at September 22, 2005 02:13 AM
Dagon, it doesn't sound to me like you've ever spent any time here, otherwise your post might have been completely different.
It's really funny the way so many uninformed people in other countries, programmed by whatever highly inferior forms of government(socialism, for example) they live under-- and I mean UNDER-- have all sorts of problems with the way we run our country{that's right, the way WE run our country}, with our govt's policies, with our president, with the way we get up and do what needs to be done to make the world a safer place, with our obtaining freedom for the Iraqi people{it's funny the way countries like yours seem to feel that it's okay for other human beings to be treated the way Saddam treated his people, as long as you don't have to suffer the same way-- as far as I'm concerned, any criticism of the US after that makes you and yours kinda' like hypocrites, wouldn't you agree?}, with pretty much anything about the US, yet you ain't too proud to come sniffing around to "daddy" when you need money or the Euros' resident hun decides to conquer y'all.
We are so above the Old Europe mentality of your Eurodunk collection of has-been and wannabe "countries" that we even tolerate the UN in our greatest city so you can assemble here and blather to one another about how evil we are while you line your pockets with whatever largesse you can shake loose from us. You are like weevils.
And you're talking from a country that allows its citizens to legally become junkies and lay around in plain sight in all their disgustingness so everybody can see how "progressive" you are, or whatever.
The only good thing that ever came out of Holland was Focus, and they were no doubt 'way before your time.
Now go back to the cafe and smoke some more hash.
Posted by Seth at September 22, 2005 03:16 AM
Indeed, America does have her problems. There are many things that are wrong -- but you don't see those immigrants going the other way, do you? People still come to America, as America is yet still the great land of opportunity.
And if there is another civil war here, it will not be fought in the streets, but in the courtrooms and the city halls. It may not be bloodless, but it will be close.
Posted by Ogre at September 22, 2005 04:15 AM
It's also absurd to think that our soldiers could really "occupy" our cities as conquerors. Don't forget, each and every person in the US Military swears to uphold and protect the *Constitution* (NOT a particular person) against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC.
Our military is *us* and our Nation, at its core, is not self-hating and suicidal.
Secondly, don't forget about that teeny little item known as the Second Amendment. I know I am but one of many - in this blog-group as well as in this Nation - who is a proud owner of a gun, and who would, if necessary, use it to protect or restore my Constitutional rights.
We are a unique and diverse Nation. We squabble and argue amongst ourselves, but in the words of Charlie Daniels, "You outside folks best leave us alone!"
" 'Cause this Lady may have stumbled, but She ain't never fell..."
Or as Michael W. Smith put it in his song, "There She Stands:"
We’ve seen her flying torn and tattered
We’ve seen her stand the test of time
And through it all the fools have fallen
There she stands
By the dawn’s
Early light
And through the fight
She stands
She does stand. She will stand. As God Himself gives her the might, may she always fight for what's right and remain true to her history and her charter.
Lord, I *LOVE* my country!
-- R'cat
CatHouse Chat
Posted by Romeocat at September 22, 2005 05:50 AM
That doesn't leave me much to say but that our Spirits cannot be broken by the things Dagon proposes. We have more control over our own lives and are more individually free than others. Over 200 years ago a few men had the foresight to set these liberties and a system of checks and balances in stone. We are grateful for that and we will not give it up easily. It is what makes us great. It is the glue that binds us. That's why we will not go to war among ourselves. That's why we love our country - because of its people.
Shame that others know so little about us, yet that does not keep them from expressing their hate for us. I can only hope that Dagon will come visit us one day and see that his animosity is unfounded - and come to know some of us personally.
Posted by Oyster at September 22, 2005 04:14 PM
I hope you guys are right but I can see where Dagon is coming from. I'm concerned about the massive amounts of personal debt that people carry, the massive amount of debt our government carries and the trade deficit with China. There's a potential economic crisis right there and that alone could lead to widespread civil unrest. If it does, it won't be pretty. Soldiers occupying American cities? It's not as unlikely as you'd think.
Posted by Michael B at September 23, 2005 07:14 AM
It is nice to see that a rather short and casual post receives such attention and proves to be such a provocative statement. It is also heartwarming to see such enthusiasm still remaining for the United States. I always liked many aspects of the United States and I still do. I am not always that happy with living in a world dominated by rampant consumerism, a predatory attitude towards natural resources, unhealthy lifestyle choices and often callous militarism, jingoism and internalion agression - but these constituents are not exclusive (though predominant) to U.S. society. Obviously even the french, the danish, the tibetans have to follow the same groundrules set for by realpolitik. It may appear to be a cynical existence but not more cynical as the darwnist fundaments of a hyena killing a deer.
However there appear to be some misconceptions regarding what I believe and would have. For starters I really don't want the U.S. to suffer grief or misfortune. But do all people in the US have the same sentiments? It takes but a glance at people like Pat Robertson to conclude there is a large part of U.S. population that has sentiments that most europeans, and an even larger segment of the dutch, would consider debased, conceited of not outright evil.
My post was crude and critical. I attacked one of the holiest of holy, the allegedly undivided nature of the U.S., a place seemingl cherished with a transcendant blessing or spiritual configuration that would a priori grant it, by manifest destiny, an unhistorical prosperity. It seems to me that assumption, and the evident prosperity so obvious in the U.S. today, is for simpletons and the uneducated a reason to gloat and proudly stomp about waving flags, beating your chest. That's normal with most primates. I would feel tinges of accomplishment if I were citizin in such a powerful country and I would cherish features as inherent undivideability granted by this or that deity, a cold hard contractual guarantee that it will all be even better in the future and more of that.
The truth is that empires, and I consciously use the word empire, rize fast and die quicker these days. The romans lasted centuries. I believe the U.S. will enjoy its boom for less than a century.
I can hammer on about cliches, start endless meaningless discussions where I spout arguments, to be cut down by similar counter-cliches and even better phrased counter arguments and I'd resolve nothing. Instead I will counter with my personal opinions, my perceptions and my preferences. I will touch upon a few statements made in reply posts and we'll see what may come of it.
"Old Europe".
In my perception this is a silly, almost infantile slogan. I cannot see it any different than being a catchy construct put forth by "neocon" politico's (and similar people) to complain and mutter about european countries being less militaristic and not automatically inclined to fall in line when the presidency barks orders. Be amazed if you prefer but the Netherlands are consistently in the top ten of economies of the world, and in many cases ranked higher than the U.S. Whereas the netherlands is alleged to be old europe, in the meantime starvingly poor poles, of this resplendent new Europe, come to work at below minimum wage in this quaint archaic region. The choice of terminology in making distinction between old and new europes is as montey pythoneanly silly as referring to the U.S. as "old america" and places like mexico as "new america". I wonder if we can call Canada "the new america" if it steps out of NAFTA as it is bound to do one of these days.
"Patrioritsm is good"
Well, a word is a difficult fish to catch. Words are slippery bastards. I could also use the word jingoism, fanaticism, prejudice, oafishness, beliggerance, arrogance, take your pick. My personal preferance is largely culturally based. I will refer to the beaten to death cliche of nazi nationalism. It is something that has been over-quoted over here and still a source of resentment of the dutch towards places like Germany and France. And, more relevantly, towards the U.S. Sure, everyone can have his hobby. I just hope it stays a hobby and not slowly transmogrifies into a religion.
"America is going strong"
As many americans would have it, america is alleged to be going strong. And I would agree. The U.S. is a massive beast, with mighty feet ten feet high, a massive maw, huge swaying limbs, claws and teeth I could make funiture of. But from my perception I'd state unambiguously this mighty dinosaur has got a few bugs. Sure - every country has a few diseases and the afflictions of the mighty transatlantean nation are maybe a rash and a passing one at that. It may be so. America has a massive, unprecented economy. It is richer than anything. Its paupers live better than most royalty centuries ago. But will it last? The U.S. has many, many problems. The schooling system falling apart? Its poor being abused and underfunded in ways that are more akin to the norms of a third world nation? A continuing clinging to death penalties where *every* modern nation in the world has abolished them decades ago? An infantile obsession to apply morals regarding consumption of narcotics in an emperialist fashion on the rest of the world whereas this country itself is the biggest consumer of hard narcotics, percentage wise and in rough numbers? A country where the elite wallows in vanity, superficiality and excesses that evoke nothing but disgust in most of the world, including your very neighbours? A dedication to a decaying road and suburban and cityplanning infrastructure that simply won't work when oil becomes more expensive? The biggest, most well-organized and wealthiest organized crime syndicates? A military budget bigger than all military expenditures of all countries of the world? A by any definition shady, crony-ish, insider-ish, impenetrable political system that isn't even remotely democratic? Rampant and institutional racism? Corporations that are nearly all unaccountable, corrupt, intertwined with politics? A callous disregard for the environment *especially* the environment outside its borders? Decades of background in brutal repression, intervention, smear, intrige and other backhandedness all over the glove - with a death toll that some, like Noam Chomsky, estimate to number in the many millions by now? An epidemic of obesity that'll cost the nation billions ? A reckless disregard for financial security and a rampant credit bubble? An almost thirdworldish trade defecity? A government throwing everything but the kitchensink at an iraqi insurgency numbering no more than 20.000 - firing literally hundreds of thousands of smallarms rounds in attempts to crush this resistance PER single alleged insurgency member - and still failing? Spending about onetenth on development aid tro poor countries per capita as the netherlands do? Jobs scattering to all four winds, leaving americans left with dead-ender employment, humiliating jobs in the service industry at wages that are pathetic by any standard and costs of living rising every year? A shamefull ineptitude in dealing with a natural distaster with 1000+ deaths whereas your alleged third world neighbour Cuba suffers no deaths whatsoever?
I could go on.
"People in Europe are swayed by propaganda and not informed about the real U.S."
That may be. I wouldn't know obviously. But I don't believe it for a second. Actually, from my probably heretical perspective I am damn convinced that the vast majority of U.S. people are near brainwashed by a new big corporate networks and media. I actually think most dutch know more about the real state of affairs, the actual truth, in the U.S. and *substantially* better informed about the world. Yeah how do I substantiate this assertion? I can only say I've talked to many, many americans coming over and all, not one exempt, agreed with me after spending some time here. Many called most of their countryfolk "horridly misinformed" by the U.S. media. That's americans living here for a while and making sweeping statements about you, who are reading this. Conversely many of my friends visited the U.S. and I get the same sounds from them, labelling most americans they meet over there in paradise as being criminally ignorant, selfcentered and closeminded. Again, I think there's something really really wrong with your media.
"The U.S. liberated the dutch from the Germans"
They did, and thanks to them. So did Canadians, British, Algerians, French and many others. Actually, I was born decades after the second world war so it's becoming a bit stale of a subject here. But I grant you permission to bring it up again and again till, say, about 2017. Thanks again. Then again, if I would be saluting a swastika, I might actually be proud, unambiguous, jingoistic, (chavinistic?) very aryan and wouldn't know any better, right? Or maybe I would be radioactive dust my country having been nuked by the U.S. somewhere between 1945-1955. Who can tell?
"God exists"
You are obviously free to believe that. I think that whole god hypothesis has no bearing on me. But please don't pray on me.
"America is here to stay and it's time the world accepts this"
I do sincerely believe america is a better alternative than, say, Russia... Saudi Arabia... Iraq... and several others. I prefer a nice, civilized U.S. One that allows for people to differ, others to prosper, contribute. A nice america, that is compassionate and shares. Are you?
"Socialism is Bad"
Satan is bad too, they have been saying for millenia. That doesn't make it true. But go ahead being everything but social over there, your choice.
"America is an immigration country"
If given the choice between dying/working for 1$ a day in some southamerican slum OR working as a virtual slave in the U.S. for 1$ an hour I would probably scatter through the desert and try and sample the goods as well. Is that actually something to be proud of, sustaining an illegal population of tens of millions (and a million+ being added every year) who are uninsured and undernourished. Then again, in a few years the main languages in several states will be spanish. Great if you like diversity.
"America is well protected by legal checks and balances, such as the First Amendment".
This idea is laughable and unsustainable. If a complete idiot like W.Bush can rewrite, edit or downright cheat your legal system in 4 years, what will be left of it by the end of this century?
"The netherlands is a depraved country wallowing in abortion, drug abuse and euthanasia"
In all statistical analysis, even those done by analists visiting the netherlands from the U.S., it becomes evident that drug use in the netherlands is lowest of europe. We do not have a heroin problem as opposed to those countries around us - who have a modest problem - and opposed to the U.S., who has a severe narcotics problem. We have the lowest number of deaths from drug abuse. We have very few actual euthanasia cases and those that occur are documented, screened and in the open, as opposed to hidden, obfuscated or sweeped under the rug. Child pregnancy rate is fundamentally lower than in the U.S., including abortions.
Well, this post could go on and on and eventually nobody will be left reading. Just let me suggest you find inspiration in my post, look a little more critical trowards the U.S. and try and improve things a little. Things are not always divinely granted or success isn't guaranteed. You gotta work for it and keep your eyes open. And people, please try and keep your country together. Try and keep a good financial management. You are a big market for our goods. We can't have the U.S. going bankrupt. We would lose 5% of our exports. That would be horrible!
With kind regards,
Dagon
Posted by dagon at September 23, 2005 10:36 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful and lengthy reply, Dagon. I can't cover your entire reply, but I'm sure that some others will help.
Just to start, my perception is that you still don't know the true America. A few U.S. visitors and European newspapers aren't sufficient to fill that void. This lack of understanding is partly evidenced by your suggestions of how we should be.
We're not like Europe and we don't want to be. People left Europe and other lands for America for benefits and freedoms that their native lands could not offer. We're more independent and, I think, harder workers. Our tax system gives us incentives to work, as we can keep more of what we make. Since much of our success comes from our system, we like it as it is. We, also, still value individuals and benefit from the individual spirit that gets buried in group mentality.
To cover one of your points, let's look at education. "The Economist" had an article on September 8th, comparing U.S. and European universities. (I would give you the link, but those bums, I mean capitalists, are now charging for it.) [UPDATE--Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/8ab4l ]. The entire article explained that America had superior institutions of higher learning, with evidence provided, and one big reason is that we spend more on our colleges, as a result of blending private donations with state support rather than having the state be completely in charge. We pay better, have better facilities, and produce the top performers. Other countries recognize that and send a greater proportion of their students to the U.S. rather than Europe.
Our military is large and strong, partly because we're protecting you--and many other nations. If the U.S. were not a friend to the Netherlands, Canada, Japan, etc., you can bet that the military spending in those countries would rise substantially.
Regarding the ultimate decline of the U.S., it's hard to predict, but I suspect that the decline and possible collapse will be caused by, not the way we are now, but, the way that the left and Europe wants us to become. I really believe the best way to look at our country is to compare us to Rome, which fell apart internally. Accepting more liberal ideas, spending money on bread and circuses, loosening morals, etc. brought down that state. (They never should have let those liberal Greek slaves raise their kids.)
Other criticisms that you offer, such as corruption, are not isolated to America. Just check out the U.N. and the "food for oil" scams and bribes if you want an international version of corruption. Much of what you list are simply faults and weaknesses of the human nature, which we offset somewhat by being guided as a spirtitual nation blessed by God--whom you may have met but not realized.
That's all the time that I have and some others may want to agree or disagree with you. You're not wrong on everything--at least according to me, but I think that the information gap about the American spirit needs some filling.
I sincerely appreciate your insight and response.
Posted by Woody at September 23, 2005 11:59 AM
Just consider this one thing; ...
irregardless of how succesfull the US is (or isn't) I do guarantee you a lot less people like you. Sentiments over here have towards the US have taken a nosedive and in most countries across the world you'll encounter similar interest. Ten years ago, in the Clinton era, the US was regarded as a bastion of common sense and progress and I for one was willing to disregard any character flaws.
If currently there is a climate of disdain (or worse) across the world, please climb out of your respective anal cavities and ask yourself why. Even if it were only unilalteralism that would not explain the turn for the worse.
I besiege all americans who read this: try and do something about your administration. You are slowly entering the red on the "evil" gauge. We don't trust you any longer. Your country is acting weird.
Posted by dagon at September 23, 2005 04:04 PM
Dagon, I personally appreciate your courteous manner of debate, but "your country is acting weird"?
Fine.
"Weird" is toppling dictators who abuse and murder their citizens. OK.
"Weird" is hunting down and killing barbarians who will not confine their bloody rampages to armed forces personnel. All right.
"Weird" is doing our best and shedding OUR dearest blood so that every person in a country - rich, poor, Muslim, athiest, male female - has at least a *chance* of having a say in how their government works. Uh-huh.
"Weird" is doing our (admittedly imperfect) best to stand on the side of compassion, freedom, and democracy, while the majority of the rest of the world pooh-pooh's our efforts while they do nothing useful. Right.
Y'know what? I *LIKE* being "weird!"
-- R'cat
CatHouse Chat
Posted by Romeocat at September 23, 2005 04:57 PM
GM
Your response to Dragon was futile, as his final statement reveals that he is just another Bush basher. Perhaps he is an operative of the American left!
PC
Posted by pc at September 23, 2005 06:16 PM
Dagon wrote: "I besiege all americans who read this: try and do something about your administration. ...We don't trust you any longer. Your country is acting weird."
Dagon, we just re-elected the President of the United States, not the "president of France and Europe." Our other candidate would have appeased Europe to the detriment of this country's best interests. He was rejected. We don't tell you how you should vote or that you should elect more conservative leaders, so that we would be happier.
If I see a problem here, it is from the European viewpoint, with perhaps a touch of envy. Perhaps it is also a touch of brainwashing from a radical European press.
Popularity contests don't carry as much weight as doing the job to which you were elected and for the people who elected you. Bush does his job and, to his credit, does what he says--unlike the U.N. which just keeps passing resolutions and doesn't act.
Not to be crude and I don't speak for anyone else, but I don't care what Europeans think of us or this administration. We're right and we're moving ahead with or without the rest of the world. You can choose to join us and prosper or stay behind throwing a fit.
Posted by Woody at September 23, 2005 06:39 PM
Oh Dagon. Obviously you really don't understand what the "American experiment" is really all about.
Why would you though...not being an American and all you probably have never been taught what we stand for.
SO many people say "America is an Empire!!"-they don't care that we have never taken land, people, resources, money from another state. The true empires, such as Roman, didn't have the benefit of the people's ability to vote them into and out of office. The real empires had the same corrupt leaders decade after decade (kind of like Cuba.)
Not in America. Nope. The longest anyone can be POTUS is eight years...big difference. America is not an empire...stop using that term just because your upset with the current administration. Grow up.
Ditto with the Old Europe crap. Europe needs to get with the times. They need to remember who has balied them out of the two worst wars of their times.
Against other states within the "union"...And don't get me going about how modern and wonderful the Netherlands is...isn't it awesome that your country has adapted the stance that it's ok to murder children and elderly people who are deemed, by your own chosen state doctors, to not be worthy of life. 64 children so far Dagon. Don't talk to me about compassion. (And many suspect the true reason for these "mercy" killings is to take high cost patients off the rolls so the money can go to more worthy lives...) That's so compassionate now isn't it. I'de be ashamed if I were you.
Just because one is an American doesn't mean they have a right to a job, to a house, to anything.
Americans have to work for what they want. That is part of the great experiment. The liberal side of this nation would like to see this "progress" into something more in tune with what your neighborhood does...socialism. America was not meant to be that. The hard work of it's citizens should be enough to evoke pride and patriotism, but again, the liberals have ruined this. They make it out like our "poor" people are entitled to all the things most of us work for. BTW, our "poor" folk are not as bad off as many would like you to think...many of them drive around in fancy cars, have computers and internet, get free food and free college educations...free healthcare and drugs.
Yet they do not contribute to society. They feed off it. Like parasites.
Who are you to say President Bush has re-written our checks and balances? If you're talking about the Patriot Act...get a grip. Great Britain is doing far more things that we would ever do...are you calling Tony Blair names too?
Joke around about the importance of the American economy in this world...but realize that you, along with every other nation, would go bankrupt along with America. It's not going to happen. The people won't let it...we work...we contribute to our economy and that's the beauty of what we stand for.
Posted by Raven at September 23, 2005 07:16 PM
Dagon?
While my esteemed fellows from The Wide Awakes have offered kind responses, I feel the time the time for kind remarks are over, as you seem to dislike the US and have NO IDEA of what we truly stand for or how we honestly feel, so, on behalf of many, many people in this country, let me explain a few things for you.
First, we here in America, (the majority of us anyway) couldn't give a flying rat's ass what the people in europe, either "old" or "new", think of us.
The people in europe are weak, socialistic narcissist's that think with their hearts, not their brains, and manage to ignore the reality of the threats the world face in modern times in favor of believing that appeasement will keep them safe.
I have decided to not touch on the fact that those in europe seem content to be slaves for the state and don't cherish the true measure of Freedom, which is socio-economic mobility.
As for some of your points;
"The schooling system falling apart"
Yes, our schools, (the government schools up to 12th grade) are bad. That is because of 30+ years of socialist minded policies and almost two decades of political correctness. The people in America that bow to the european system are also the ones who are pushing soft-headed policies like political corectness on our society. They would be the democrats.
"Its poor being abused and underfunded in ways that are more akin to the norms of a third world nation"
Our "poor" are not "abused" nor are they "underfunded" (btw, just that you think the poor should be "funded" better shows you socialist leanings, and I absolutely HATE socialists), and the poor in America have the same opportunity to use their intelligence, luck and/or sweat to make it out of those ghettos, barrios and shacks. Poverty is NOT an economic condition Dagon, it is a learned, multi-generational problem.
"A continuing clinging to death penalties where *every* modern nation in the world has abolished them decades ago"
We do believe in the death penalty here, for people that wish to prey on society are simply leeching criminals, and the less of them we have the more peaceful will be our lives.
"An infantile obsession to apply morals regarding consumption of narcotics in an emperialist fashion on the rest of the world whereas this country itself is the biggest consumer of hard narcotics, percentage wise and in rough numbers"
In fact, if we were to be like some muslim countries that will kill a person for having illegal drugs then maybe we wouldn't be such a huge consumer of them. However, we outlaw them precisely because narcotics lead to crime.
I believe that is enough for now, however to sum up this comment in a couple of sentences;
A) We don't care what you think of us;
B) Most of our internal problems can be traced to policies that got their start in europe, (thanks you weenie);
and
C) We believe in Law and Order, so much so that we will chase down thsoe that wish us harm to the ends of the earth, and should someone get in our way they go down too.
Put that in your bong and toke it!!!
Posted by Kender at September 23, 2005 07:46 PM
Dagon.
"Old Europe" has a very specific meaning. It applies to those countries in Europe that refuse to come forward to the 21st century. It specifically means those countries who often reject freedom and capitalism except in extremely limited forms. "Old Europe" is NOT the newly freed former communist countries who understand freedom and socialism, and they like freedom.
"America is going strong" I'm glad you admit it. It is, despite your obvious dislike for us.
How can you say "Satan is Bad" right after saying you don't believe in God. You believe in Satan and not God? Now there's an unusual belief system.
As for your most recent post, you claim that you love Clinton, and therefore the world loved Clinton, and therefore the entire planet loved the United States when Clinton was president. However, in a few short years Bush is president and suddenly you, and by transference, the entire world hates the United States.
That's insane. Most of the world, from all reports I could see, absolutely laughed at Clinton. They made fun of him and his shenanigans. Countries liked him because he would brown nose anyone at any time, including giving away cash and state secrets. Bush doesn't cave to pressure and doesn't give away the farm just to make people happy -- so now everyone hates him?
Well tough. He'll be gone in a few years. Then you can decide to hate or like 250 million people based on the actions of one man once again. And for the record? We really don't care if you like us -- we don't exist to please you.
Posted by Ogre at September 23, 2005 08:15 PM
I won't continue responding. I said what I had to say in my lengthy reply and I can only hope people read my reply carefully, even if it is nonsense to them. If you have the courage, please keep tabs on the following sites, even if you are convinced they are wrong.
http://storiesinamerica.blogspot.com/2005/08/conversations-at-gas-pump.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/
Posted by dagon at September 24, 2005 07:03 AM
