It is very convenient that only the globe got the records. Or did they?

Posted by Michael at June 9, 2005 10:14 PM

Michael, I understand that the LA Times has been 'authorized' a look at the papers. But, as liberal as those two papers are, I don't think we will see any 'dirt' and that of course is behind Kerry's duck and weave routine. Mohammad Ali couldn't lay a glove on this guy the way he dances.

Posted by GM Roper at June 9, 2005 11:03 PM

met with the enemy? what does that mean? there were plenty of people in uniform and out meeting with the 'enemy' at that time in Paris and elsewhere. That's what has you all upset about Kerry? sounds like pretty mild stuff to get too worked up over.
I still find the praise from people who later attacked him interesting.
But LA Times very liberal, eh? Hardly, just another capitalist news organ that supports empire, tax cuts, union busting, etc.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-oas9jun09,0,7240323.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials

If that's liberal, next we'll be lining up Lieberman on charges of being a communist.

Posted by steve at June 10, 2005 02:24 PM

Ah, Imperial America. Gosh, I'm betting that plans are afoot to crown G.W. as Emperor, whaddaya think? Hey, I figure that I can maybe become an ArchDuke...nah, probably an ArchDuck. Quack.

Posted by tad at June 10, 2005 04:08 PM

an afterthought...I have always been really impressed how Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reported all those atrocities that he witnessed. What moral courage! And then, him asking to leave due to his serious three...yep, THREE in just four months...wounds. I'll bet he really agonized over leaving his enlisted boat crew to carry on with their full tours. What physical courage!

Mon Dieu! Whatta guy. I'll bet that the reason that he doesn't want real people to see all his service record is that he is too modest. I'll bet he put himself in for a: Legion of Merit, Air Medal, Distinguished Flying Cross, and many more, all of which were awarded. No witness to the actions, but what the heck, real heroes don't need witness to verify wounds or acts of real heroic deeds.

Posted by tad at June 10, 2005 06:49 PM

Why would Kerry have had to report all the atrocities? He rather handily took care of that non-sequitor in the O'Neil debate I recall.
As is the business about 'real records'...everything's been released. Ya lost Vietnam, is it that hard to deal with? Ya'd think the defeat put the empire in jeopardy or something, an empire that Kerry happily helped Bush with when help was needed. You guys get worked up about the oddest things, your allies!

Posted by steve at June 10, 2005 08:13 PM

Yep, some do get worked up about the "oddest things". We do not like liars. Kerry claimed that artocities were committed. How did he know? Did he see them? What, as an officer, did he do to stop them?

How does one get three Purple Heart Medals in four months...and none requre hospitalization? I was in an infantry company and nearly all the WIAs had to be medevaced to the military's version of an ER. Is anyone with actual military experience in direct ground combat believing this hockum that Kerry has peddled? One of his "wounds" was self-inflicted. That doesn't qualify for a Purple Heart Medal.

Some of us have seen young men die and young men be wounded severely. We get "worked up" when a faux hero comes along and touts his "patriotism" for FOUR months in RVN. And he asked to leave. And leave he did, and his enlisted sailors had to stay and fight, because they were not as adroit at working the system as Kerry. What a real leader and officer to look up to! Right.

Added to all that he wrangled medals for heroism. What heroism? Who actually saw it? Dig a bit and you find that all this was based on self-promotion by Kerry. A Silver Star for killing one unarmed, fleeing and wounded enemy. Gosh, I am impressed. A Bronze Star Medal with "V" for pulling someone out of the water, wow!

I could go on, but I am too "worked up". This guy Kerry shames himself, his country and worse...he debases awards really earned by far, far better men than he.

Posted by tad at June 11, 2005 10:10 AM

*We do not like liars.*

Oh gosh, gimme a break, O'Neil has lied about so much in his campaign, you can't be serious? Ditto Bush on his record of evading the draft during a war he supported.
0 in the way of 'evidence' on the 'self-inflicted' wounds.
I don't buy it, you guys tout 'united we stand' and 'support the troops' and then you attack one of your own because you don't like their politics or because they came back and did what thousands of other vets did, protest the war and join anti-war organizations. Kerry's only mistake during Vietnam was to go and fight to begin with. That he came back and publicly called people like Johnson and Nixon liars was his first real service to country, even if he was opportunistically watering down the militancy of the anti-war vets in the process.

Posted by steve at June 11, 2005 11:48 AM

"Kerry's only mistake.." Are we in Egypt? Are we looking at a river in Egypt? Gosh, I would think just by reading my earlier comment one would see some real whoppers of "mistakes."

We do not automatically support "one of our own." To the contrary, if a member of the military commits crimes, the military is the FIRST to investigate and then prosecute.

Kerry didn't make "mistakes", he committed fraud and made false official statements. He was about using the military to make himself appear a hero, and as soon as he'd accomplished his plan, he left his troops (after just four months) and went home. He quickly discovered that the "military hero" card wasn't going to play, so he flipped.

This guy is about as honest as one of those used car gents on the edge of town near a military base.

The fact the Democratic Party endorsed him for President says not much about their vetting process...or their values.

Posted by tad at June 12, 2005 08:15 AM

"Kerry didn't make "mistakes", he committed fraud and made false official statements. "

Nonsense, anyone who has to cowrite a book with Jerry Korsi to prove their 'case' is a fraud for starters. O'Neil made so much stuff up that it would take Kerry centuries to catch up in a 'making stuff up' contest.
You are correct that the Dems were careless to not vet him. How they could let a candidate run who helped Bush push the "WMD" myths is beyond me too.

Posted by steve at June 12, 2005 09:07 AM

Please explain just how Kerry got THREE Purple Heart Medals in four months AND he didn't have to go to the hospital for any of them? Please explain to me just why he left Vietnam after only four months service...oh,right, he had three PHMs. And how again is this guy NOT a fraud and liar?

Posted by tad at June 12, 2005 10:46 AM

I think re-reading Rear Admiral Hoffman's remarks in GM's original would be helpful.

Posted by tad at June 12, 2005 10:54 AM

You really don't know what you're talking about:

*Myth: Injuries that don't break the skin or cause bleeding are not eligible for the PH.*

Not true. Any non-bleeding enemy inflicted or friendly fire wound or injury, such as electrical, gas, concussion, suffocation, etc., are PH-eligible.

http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/theheart.htm

and this is very rich:

"DOLE (1988): As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg�the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/appendixc.htm

Posted by steve at June 12, 2005 09:18 PM

Right, I don't know what I'm talking about.

A self-inflicted wound does not rate a PHM.

I had a Marine throw a frag grenade into a stand of dry bamboo. There was no incoming fire. It was quiet, though all hands were tense as the previous day we'd had one Marine KIA and six more WIA...some pretty seriously. OK, some dummy throws the grenade, I see it and yell hit the deck. Everyone does....except the Marine who threw it. BANG. One millisecond after the bang, the Marine yells "I'm hit." Of course he was. One small fragment from his own grenade hit just next to his eye. It wasn't serious. We had lots of medevac helos orbiting and with nothing going on, we sent him away for treatment.

Three loooong days later, we returned to the rear. The grenade guy approached me, wearing a bandaid next to his eye and asked when he was going to get his Purple Heart. I said, "Come with me." I took him down behind the large and very dusty tents that were our luxury living and had him dig "1-2-3" trenches...as a learning experience.

Steve, I do know about Purple Heart Medals. A real officer, and I've seen many, would not have done what Kerry did. His PHM's and awards for heroism smell like very bad fish. The FACT that he left after only four months...and his enlisted crew remained behind, speaks volumes to me...and I've been both - enlisted and officer. He worked the system and those who have seen the elephant know him for the sham he is.

Three Purple Hearts in four months. A Silver Star Medal. A Bronze Star Medal with "V". All in four months. Stuff and nonsense. I've been around real warriors, very often. No one with any real trigger time would believe this.

Posted by tad at June 12, 2005 10:38 PM

*"A self-inflicted wound does not rate a PHM."*

hmmmm

#

Many purple heart awards were made to Swift Boat personnel in the Vietnam era, for wounds similar to those sustained by Kerry. So, SBV's claim that Kerry did not deserve his award is equivalent to saying that the Purple Hearts won by many of those who served in Vietnam were undeserved. I invite them to announce this in public.
#

One of Kerry's crewmates who was actually involved in the incident that led to Kerry's injury stated that Kerry's injury could not have been self-inflicted since Kerry was bending down to pick up an M-16 at the time. The two crewmates who were with Kerry during the incident categorically dismiss as false the claim that Kerry got his injury due to misfiring an M-79 grenade launcher.
#

SBV's claim that another person (William Schacte) served on Kerry's boat and confirmed that Kerry's injury was self-inflicted is also false. William Schacte did not serve in Kerry's boat that night. O'Neill backpedaled from the claim. Not to mention that the two crewmates of Kerry who were with him that night categorically state that Schacte was NOT on their boat, and that Schacte's claims are categorically false. And the icing on the cake - SBV's own website and report of the events contradicted Schacte and O'Neill - so they revised their website!
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrypurpleheart1.htm

And I repeat this, since Tad seemed to skip over it or not see its relevance:

""DOLE (1988): As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg�the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/appendixc.htm

Posted by steve at June 12, 2005 11:35 PM

While I very seriously question the veracity of Steve's sources, I would allow that some might be partially correct. Well, for the sake of discussion here, I will allow as how they are correct...just for this discussion.

Given the above, I am still totally disgusted that young Lt(jg) Kerry, the alledged hero, deserted his crew of enlisted sailors. Officers are supposed to be loyal to their men. This is hardly Nelson at Trafalgar.

Posted by tad at June 13, 2005 12:36 PM

"Given the above, I am still totally disgusted that young Lt(jg) Kerry, the alledged hero, deserted his crew of enlisted sailors. Officers are supposed to be loyal to their men. This is hardly Nelson at Trafalgar."

Yet those on whom you would rely for evaluations of Kerry's service are the same Joes who praised him on the record when it mattered. In any event, yes, the quotes I've cited above are accurate, indeed they're every bit as accurate as O'Neil and Korsi's claims are inaccurate.

Posted by steve at June 13, 2005 08:17 PM

"..the same Joes who praised him on the record.."

Steve, Do you know how Fitness Reports are rendered? Are you familiar with the process? If your are, another wrinkle in all this is that in combat - and especially for units like Kerry's - who was actually present to observe him a hour by hour basis? Often, not anyone. While there were attempts to keep the evaluation process accurate, the truth of the matter is often superiors had to rely on the honest of their subordinates. They would also evaluate their mission accomplishment.

In many situations, there are senior officers and lots of enlisted personnel that can "blow the whistle" on a bad egg. However, in some situations, those conditions do not exist. Thus, the honesty, morality, decency, and character of the officer are counted upon to report facts. All that I have seen is that Kerry "dressed up" the facts considerably. He knew, as we all did, that three PHM and you would be rotated out of country..IF YOU REQUESTED IT. I NEVER saw this done, and I was in combat units during my entire time in the late RVN. NEVER.

Kerry is the first officer that I have heard of that, while (alledgedly) receiving three minor wounds, asked to leave and go home. What is that? How would you describe it? Did this guy have a sudden realization that they were in a war and he was maybe killing people and that was somehow against his new belief system? If that is the case, how does it square with him ballyhooing himself as a Vietnam veteran and why does he display his medals in his office.

This, truly, is a case of "Is you is, or is you ain't.."

I really am giving far too much time to this guy that surely doesn't rate it. He is no longer a threat to our country...at least in a major way. I suspect he may not really have wanted to be president. That job would have cut dramatically into his skiing, wind-surfing, and generally life of ease and priviledge.

He, in my opinion, is no warrior and while his blather may have allowed him to fast dance his way around direct questions, I remain convinced that he would not be a person I would want on my flank in combat. That, ultimately, tells one all one needs to know.

Posted by tad at June 15, 2005 08:21 PM