1

There's a lot of reasons I have for not liking Sen. McCain, but his military experience and/or his military raising is NOT one of them...

GM, I am gonna be nice, it's your blog and I won't go overboard, but Harkin is a WUSSY...

Well, it sounds like wussy anyway...

2 I see.  So all the things one learns from a military upbringing and being a member of the military count for naught in Harkin's eyes.  Things like honor, sacrifice and self-discipline.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Harkin probably missed those parts of his own military experience and training.  So much so that he had to lie about it.

3

Let us not be surprised that Tom Harkin made such a statement.  I agree with you that Harkin made the statement to smear McCain, but this is not an entirely new or novel stratagem among liberal democrats.  One only needs to consider the source; the difference between Harkin and McCain (both fourth-term senators) could not be more distinct.  As an Iowan democrat, Harkins has helped to dismantle the agricultural framework of this country, transforming it from rugged individualist agri-business into a subsistence dependency; he is one of those stalwart socialists who helped turn the entire framework over to corporate giants.  Harkin left the Navy in 1967 (while the nation was still at war in Vietnam); McCain’s combat service began in 1966 and ended in 1973 when released from captivity.  While Harkin was seeking political office “back home,” McCain risked personal injury rescuing a fellow pilot from an aircraft fire aboard the USS Forrestal; he was short down over North Vietnam in the same year.

 

What should we conclude about Harkin’s statement?  For one thing, he represents that genre of politician McCain railed about in 1966.  Frustrated by micromanagement from Washington, McCain and fellow pilots believed, “. . . we thought our civilian commanders were complete idiots who didn’t have the least notion of what it took to win the war”; the same frustration shared by author Stephen Coonts, who wrote the exceptional story Flight of the Intruder.

 

If by “military mindset” Harkin suggests that we need a no-nonsense leader, a man who consistently demonstrated professional integrity, toughness, an unwillingness to compromise on the most essential issues, and a maverick who does the right thing because it is right, then McCain is preferable over the baby-kissing sycophant who will do or say anything to achieve the White House.

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1

The dissapoinments for liberals just keep adding up.  Why do they hate the U.S. defending itself?  Do they think it's "not fair" unless we give our techonology to everyone?   Remember Liberals Laughing at "Star Wars?"

 

2

You may want to rethink that one GM.

Shooting down a disabled satellite is far too easy compared with downing an incoming enemy missile, especially when the enemy takes countermeasures.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel versus hitting one high-powered rifle bullet with another.

Star Wars may well work as an offensive technology and, in that, may be worth studying as long as we don't pour too much money into it. But scientists have long since debunked the idea that it could ever be an effective DEFENSIVE technology. The countermeasures, e.g. decoys, are just too easy.

3 If the military pursued the priorities of the liberals, they wouldn't even be able to shoot down one target--period, and this satellite would still be a threat.  Liberals oppose just about anything that has the word "military" associated to it.  Their arguments don't have to make sense or to be valid., which they rarely are.

4

I guess I'm not a liberal then.

I support research into space weapons, but I don't think it should be a priority and, at the moment, it should be suspended because we just can't afford that kind of exotic research.

My objection to "Star Wars'' has been the silly Reagan/Bush rhetoric claiming it would be a defensive weapon.

The offensive capabilities of any such weapon would be spectacular while as a defensive weapon it would be useful only against the extremely low-tech missiles.

Defense spending research and develop requires balance. Too much is simply wasteful and counterproductive. If that makes a liberal, than I surely am.

5 "the dissapoinments for liberals just keep adding up."

 Woodster, that's just funny on so many levels. How many previous tests have failed miserably, exactly?

6

McL... "You may want to rethink that one GM."

Actually not, if you take a look at the graphics noted at Fausta's Blog, you will see the difficulty of hitting an object at a closing speed of over 22,000 mph.  Especially when you have to insure that the two objects are at exactly the same place at the same time.  I'd think your knowledge of physics is somewhat lacking so you may want to rethink your position.

7

It appears to have been a "one shot, one kill" scenario and a direct hit in the fuel tank.  The Navy did a fine job of targeting the satillite.

Did you happen to hear all the scuttlebut about Russia, China and another of those pain in the butt countries mad about us shooting it down because they said we were doing it to destroy "spy secrets" and risking the debris hitting people to do it???  I have one thing to say about that.  "And your point would be...????"  I'm sure the fuel wasn't the only consideration.  I don't know of any "fuel type" that wouldn't "burn  up" reentering the atmosphere.  So, your thoughts GM???

Oh, and I want to send you my very best get well wishes!!!!

8 Hoosier Mom, from what I understand there was a fear that the tank
wouldn't burn up in re-entry, and hydrozine is some extremely nasty stuff.

9 This was a spy satellite that failed to reach proper orbit, and many classified components could have hit the Earth intact and be retrieved by our enemies.  If the Chinese want our technology, make them buy it from the Democrats. 

10

Mac:  My objection to "Star Wars'' has been the silly Reagan/Bush rhetoric claiming it would be a defensive weapon.

Decide for yourself, after reading Reagan's speech, whether it was he or McLovin who is silly.

Reagan's Address to the Nation on Defense and National Security March 23, 1983

What if free people could live secure in the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant U.S. retaliation to deter a Soviet attack, that we could intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies?

I know this is a formidable, technical task, one that may not be accomplished before the end of this century. Yet, current technology has attained a level of sophistication where it's reasonable for us to begin this effort. It will take years, probably decades of effort on many fronts. There will be failures and setbacks, just as there will be successes and breakthroughs. And as we proceed, we must remain constant in preserving the nuclear deterrent and maintaining a solid capability for flexible response. But isn't it worth every investment necessary to free the world from the threat of nuclear war? We know it is.

- - -

Mac:  The offensive capabilities of any such weapon would be spectacular while as a defensive weapon it would be useful only against the extremely low-tech missiles.

Like those of China, Iran, and North Korea?

11

Not to mention it sent an important, and much overdue signal to the Chinese.  Of course, now they will redouble their efforts, and we will need to redouble ours . . . and rocket scientists will have a job for years into the future.  Well, that is unless Obama dismantles the DoD, NASA, and the State Department.

Semper Fi

12

Of course that kind of weapons technology would have some practical applications, such as fending off the very minor, outlying threat of an intercontinental scud attack from Pyongyang.

But one difference between adults and children is that adults understand you have to make difficult choices in a world of scarcity.

For adults, the question isn't simply whether it would be good to have space weapons, but whether it's worth the sacrifices we'd have to make to get them.

At a moment when we're borrowing up to our eyebrows just to maintain a couple of wars against tiny bands of ragtag militia and fake religious gangsters, I think we just can't afford the luxury of spending much money on these kinds of weapons.

Let's figure out how to pay for the defense we need now before we go launching on major projects that have such distant possiblity for effective application.

13

McLovin, you're with the same crowd during the moon race who said that the U.S. shouldn't waste money on space but should spend it on people.  The techonologies developed in our space research have paid far greater dividends to mankind than throwing money at unappreciative people who use it once or waste it.

I'm sure that the people whose lives were saved in Israel from the Scud missiles appreciate the research that we had developed to that point.

 

14

Success requires making difficult decisions from among imperfect choices.

In a perfect world, there would be no problem about spending billions on star wars. Though in a perfect world, there'd be no need for such things.

Adults understand that you can't always get what you want. For adults, the question isn't whether there is any benefit to star wars, but whether the benefit outweighs the costs.

Children, on the other hand, only point to the benefits of getting what they want. They ignore the costs and just keep repeating the benefits to themselves and others.

 

 

15

Mac: Children, on the other hand, only point to the benefits of getting what they want. They ignore the costs and just keep repeating the benefits to themselves and others.

Mac, why didn't you tell us that you are a Republican?

One difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans want what is best for the country and Democrats want what is best for themselves as individuals.

 

16

Conservatives are in a perpetual battle to find and maintain a moral and fiscal blank check.

Note how many times they repeat: "We're in a war now" as if that justifies subverting the Constitution to spy on Americans, subverting treaty obligations to use torture and spending like drunken sailors, without any hint as to how we'll pay for it.

Without a horrific enemy, the right wing demands to curtail civil rights, expand government power and spend on the military without limits have no logic.

This is why so many right wing American's actually join bin Laden in trying to make his ragtag band of fake religious gangsters out to be some kind of massive global threat that's poised to take over the free world. This is why so many right wing Americans cannot even admit that moderate Muslims exist, let alone acknowledge their role on the front lines battling Muslim extremism.

Always be suspicious of people who demand blank checks.

17

Mac, you've diverted from dicussing the subject or answering our responses.   Now, you are simply cutting and pasting typical liberal and wrong characterizations of conservatives--very wrong. What we say is what we feel as individuals.  What you say is what you're told by the group with which you identity. 

Wouldn't it be better to stay on topic than to post bland attacks that you're regugitating?

18

Woody, you constantly depart from the subjects of posts. You do it here and on other blogs as well. You have no right whatsoever to criticize me for it.

You only try to bring that up because you have no other rational response to the points I've raised.

The concept of a blank check is completely relevant to Star Wars, anyway.

My criticism of Star Wars has been that it costs too much for the potential benefits. Part of my critique of that includes pointing out how right wing Americans are never willing to acknowledge that weapons spending could possibly be too much. They much prefer to argue that the enemy we face is really, really, really scary, so we have NO CHOICE but to spend ourselves into oblivion.

If you have a relevant point, Woody, make it. If not, you may want to consider leaving the conversation to those who do.

 

19

Mac, I suspect that I know who you, although you use a different name here.  At least I'm consistent in identifying myself.

Your response in No. 16 was nothing but a general criticism of conservatives that you likely save as a word document and use whenever you're out of ammunition.  When I bring it up, then you say that I'm guilty of it. 

Ann Coulter was right about talking with liberals.

"If you can somehow force a liberal into a point-counterpoint argument, his retorts will bear no relation to what you've said -- unless you were in fact talking about your looks, your age, your weight, your personal obsessions, or whether you are a fascist. In the famous liberal two-step, they leap from one idiotic point to the next, so you can never nail them. It's like arguing with someone with Attention Deficit Disorder." -- P. 3

Blank checks are what liberals think exist for all welfare programs, which never expire and are never capped.  At least a missile defense system shows results and has an end objective that can be measured and then is over.

 

 

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2

GM,

Eleven, Eleven, Eleven.  1918.   That is how I tell the students about WW I.  Using Tuchman's book: THE GUNS OF AUGUST and Keegan's THE FIRST WORLD WAR...and lots of bits and pieces of many other works and my wanderings through Verdun and Arras (the Somme)....and a Michelin map with all the scores of cemetaries from the Great War I try to set the stage for how WW II come upon France with the surety of the hard snows of Europe in the winter. 

Americans, and many others, owe debts they can never repay to the lads who lost their lives so young. 

A respectful salute to all of them.....all of them....all of them.

And thanik you for writing such very good stuff to remind us all.

3

4 Guy, I appreciate your praise of the military. I also know, and I am sure that you know also, that the military is composed of a cross  section of America. There are good service people, and there are bad service people. Back in the days of the draft, while your Dad was the IG at Ft Sam Houston, he told me, that his job would be so much better if the draftees were at least literate.
These days, the service is all volunteer. I appreciate that the young men and women are willing to go in harms way voluntarily. However, that does not instantly convert them to sainthood. There are quite a lot of them that have chose to volunteer instead of serving a prison sentence.
As you know, I spent 48 months in active service and I assure you that there were men in some of my units that I hoped I would never see or hear from again.
 This is not meant to denigrate the service people that are now risking their life and limb because they have no real alternative. You follow orders. Whether the orders are good or not is not their option.
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THE THINGS THAT MAKE A SOLDIER GREAT
Edgar Guest

The things that make a soldier great and send him out to die, To face the flaming cannon's mouth nor ever question why, Are lilacs by a little porch, the row of tulips red, The peonies and pansies, too, the old petunia bed, The grass plot where his children play, the roses on the wall: 'Tis these that make a soldier great. He's fighting for them all. 'Tis not the pomp and pride of kings that make a soldier brave; 'Tis not allegiance to the flag that over him may wave; For soldiers never fight so well on land or on the foam As when behind the cause they see the little place called home. Endanger but that humble street whereon his children run, You make a soldier of the man who never bore a gun. What is it through the battle smoke the valiant soldier sees? The little garden far away, the budding apple trees, The little patch of ground back there, the children at their play, Perhaps a tiny mound behind the simple church of gray. The golden thread of courage isn't linked to castle dome But to the spot, where'er it be — the humblest spot called home. And now the lilacs bud again and all is lovely there And homesick soldiers far away know spring is in the air; The tulips come to bloom again, the grass once more is green, And every man can see the spot where all his joys have been. He sees his children smile at him, he hears the bugle call, And only death can stop him now — he's fighting for them all.

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Ah, yesterday my wife and I (she maybe more than I) were in the "tight jaws" mode.  It was Veterans Day and it seemed that very many were either participating in "Veterans Day" sales or hawking them.  She and I wondered just how much thought was given by many - a damned few, methinks - about veterans and who and what they did.  My bride who served on active duty for three years...some years ago...went to relatively new Freddy Gonzalez Veterans Hospital (it is located south of I-83) and, having been there before to so see what she could do to help and/or contribute, brought over some dominoes.  They like to play dominoes there. She noted that besides herself, there was noone there who wasn't either on the staff or a resident.  The place was near deserted.  So much for all the talk by many about how they hold veterans in high regard.

OK, my anger and disgust has waned a bit.  I do think that Americans need, to remember their warriors of years before.  I think more Americans need to serve in the armed forces.  A nation ready is less likely to be attacked and, if attacked, better able to more quickly hammer our enemies.  Service to our society and less to self is something we need if we wish to survive.  Selflessness vice Selfishness.

GM, Thank you for serving...and I recall your father's service too.

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1 howzabout I just thank u GM for reminding me!

2 GM,

Salutes, plaudits, accolades for all the Army has done for America, Americans...not to mention all kinds of countries and peoples around the world.

If one watched CNN and read the NYT all the time, you'd think the Army were nothing but really bad people. Not so! The vast majority have done so very, very much for the rest of us. We, truly, cannot thank them enough.

As I write, many, many soldiers are in harm's way. They are dirty, tired, away from home and putting their lives on the line. Would that all Americans knew how tough it is.

Congratz to Army.

Semper Fidelis,

Old Soldier of the Sea sends

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1 Woody, of course you are wrong again. There would be no such outrage at this so-called "war" if there had truly been a reason for invading Iraq. There was none, and the NARO weapons inspector was actually very proficient in his inspections. If the conflict had been confined to the persuit and punishment of Bin Laden and Al Quaida and their supporting taliban. This war would have been roundly supported by the american people. We ae still of the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" persuasion.
WWII was supported by the entire country because the citizens were asked to sacrifice and be involved in the war. Even to the extent that the 332 combat team was composed entirely of Japanese whose parente were confined to the infamous relocation centers.
Patriotism is still alive, but fools cannot arouse it.

2 James, today, I don't believe that there are any freedoms or any possessions that Leftists think are worth fighting a war over. They've turned into Frenchmen.

3 Of course, with today's population being geographically ignorant, they would wonder why we're invading parts of Nebraska.

Jimmy, tell all your liberal Democrat Senators to do their homework next time and grow a spine.

4 Please reread my last sentence.

5 Patriotism is still alive, even though fools try to suppress it.

6 James, I would very much hope that is true. I doubt that it is. I think your sentiment is a comforting thought that George W. Bush's political opponents tell themselves. It certainly goes down more easily to think "Well, we would support necessary wars - it's just that this one is unnecessary."

Such claims, whether on your part or mine, elude simple proofs, and can only be judged on the long flow of evidence that comes in. There are few sharp break points which gives one side or the other an opportunity to point and say "See? This proves that progressives would/would not support a more reasonable war."

so evidence, rather than proof, has to be our method of discovery. I would offer the following:
1. Americans tire of every war after 3 years. We did not fully engage WWII until well into 1942, and by 1945, had no stomach to continue to fight for Eastern Europe or to invade Japan. Thus, Yalta and Hiroshima. (See also, Vietnam buildup of 1965, protests of '6 .
2. Democrats were already denouncing Bush's war in Afghanistan in the Senate in February 2002. Newsweek used the word "quagmire" about Afghanistan 6 weeks after it started.
3. The predictions of what would go wrong in the Middle East, from the cruel Afghan winter to the humanitarian disaster in Iraq to the destabilization of the ME have not come to pass, but there has been zero, repeat zero acknowledgment of this. The current situation is Iraq is an expensive but low-level conflict with pluses and minuses, but is regularly referred to as a disaster. This is simply silly.
4. Every other initiative of the Bush Administration is greeted the same way by the Democrats and treated the same way in the media. The porridge is always either too hot or too cold. You might try identifying for us what Bush policies this has not been the case for - I can think of two, both of which earned him quick complaint on the right, without countervailing plaudits on the left. If Bush's opponents still wish to claim that they will support him on issues where he is reasonable are running out of time. It is hard to believe that a president could be as wrong as they claim he is, even were he trying to intentionally. (And no, this was not true under Clinton in reverse - evidence upon request).
5. Bush's political opponents have made repeated claims of torture, corruption, suppression of intelligence, suppression of dissent, court-stacking, and politicization of the war that have eventually turned out to be untrue. Their readiness to not simply doubt, but to leap to the worst possible conclusions without evidence betrays their insincerity.

I have no doubt that many reasonable people, particularly among the Roosevelt Democrats who have only gradually become radicalized by their fellows over the decades, believe they are fair-minded folk who would give Bush the benefit of the doubt and support a president as best they could. I submit that they started this way, but allowed themselves to be comfortably misled - played like fiddles, actually - since about one month after 9/11. Articles by conservatives predicted this starting in October 2001, and subsequent events have borne the predictions out. I find it transparent, and not at all puzzling.

7 There is at least one substantive difference between the Iraq occupation and the efforts in WWII to defeat the Axis powers. In Iraq the 'Allied' forces are the invaders occupying foreign lands. In WWII the Axis forces were the invaders invading and occupying foreign lands.

This video would like to further the idea that the anti-war majority is all about defeatism. The problem is that the indefinate US occupation of Iraq is not now a worthy goal, never has been a worthy goal and never will be a worthy goal.

Iraq Occupation cheerleaders choose not to admit that one of the stated goals of the invasion of Iraq was to depose Saddam Hussein (goal accomplished, he is dead as are his two sons Uday and Qusay). Iraq Occupation cheerleaders choose not to admit that another stated goal of the invasion of Iraq was to eliminate the alleged imminent theat to the US by Iraq via weapons of mass destruction (goal accomplished, if there are any WMD left, the US has possession of them).

The Iraq Occupation cheerleaders are the defeatists here, they simply won't declare victory - ever.

8 When the Union Banking Corporation had it's assets seized, under the trading with the enemy act, by the US government during WWII the newspapers reported that Prescott Bush, grandfather of current President George Walker Bush was a director at the Bank.

If it was reported today, here is how the headline would read:

9 Assistant Village Idiot wrote that the destabilization of the Middle East predicted to follow have not materialized.

Is the Middle East stable? Can we leave now? Do you define the Middle East as the Green zone? Not even it is secure.

Over 500,000 Iraqis have been killed.

No humanitarian disaster in Iraq?

Who is the intended audience for this AVI post? Shut-ins? People too busy golfing to find out world events for themselves? President Bush?

10 Woody wrote that liberals don't think there are any freedoms worth fighting for anymore?

Bush destroys Habeus Corpus and "liberals" don't think there are freedoms worth left fighting for?

Bush wiretaps Americans in their homes and "liberals" don't think there are freedoms worth left fighting for?

I hope a republican (unless it's Ron Paul) is elected in '08. Then republicans will really find out how uncomfortable that can be.

I can imagine a republican household telephone chat- "Hi honey, it's me, W. I bought some wine so we can praise Satan after church services, tomorrow. I really feel good about how we blew up the WTC and everyone bought it hook line and sinker except those nutty conspiracy theorists. " "Ok, hon, don't forget to pick up some milk on your way home" "b*tch" "love you too" "Bye"

11 Why are we invading Nebraska, when everyone knows Osama Bin Laden is in Pakistan, with the nuclear bomb salesmen?

12 Sorry I spelled Nebraskaq wrong, DAD.

13 tom, liberals don't fight against foreign enemies to preserve freedoms. They spend their time fighting President Bush to attain political power.

14 Tom, there are just too many posts to answer without being tedious. The Middle East has been unstable for the last 100 years, and during many periods preceding. In comparison, it may actually be slightly more stable now.

500,000 Iraqis have died? I assume you mean some excess beyond the natural death rate. Even organizations completely unsympathetic to Bush and the war effort put the number at 10% of that.

Use of the phrase "Bush destroys Habeus Corpus" brands you as a person interested in propaganda rather than arriving at truth. In several limited circumstances, the Bush Administration has claimed that habeus corpus should not apply. Hardly the same thing - and federal courts have upheld a great deal of the supposedly wildly unconstitutional acts of the Bush Adm.

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2 Angel, This post was written by Woody who is ALWAYS more alert to this kind of thing then I am. Good find Woody.

3 (Thanks, Angel and G.M., but I wouldn't say that I come even close to G.M. on covering issues of emotions or touching importance.)

Hope often keeps us going and closure helps us to move on. There was a big time gap between the two, but this shows that it's never to late to help a family with its grief and to recognize a soldier for his sacrifice.

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1 I don't remember that address, as I was much younger then, but I can tell you of one man who was there, 63 years ago. My Great-Uncle Coleman was a tank commander at Normandy. He received a purple heart for a bullet which spent the rest of his life in his leg (another bullet from North Africa earned a second PH). God Bless our fighting men and women!

2 Thank you for this post. It is very touching. It is also very important for us to remember.

PS. I borrowed your photo, gave you credit for it. Thank you.

3 Thanks, Rosemary, but all I did was post the picture. I wish that I had the name of the person sitting in boat who took it to give him credit. His job was much tougher, and I wouldn't like that view that he had knowing what was coming next.

Below is a link to the U.S. Army Normandy site, where I obtained the picture. There are many other similar pictures worth a solemn tribute.

The Normandy Invasion: The Story in Pictures

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1 Fantastic tour. Thanks, GM, enjoyed it, and it reminds me that there are still plenty of us out here that appreciates being Americans, and truly thank our men and women of the military that have kept us free, past, present, and future.

2 Awesome. Thank you GM for this post.

3 GM,
So many memorials, but not nearly enough to begin to bring proper tribute to those who served (and are still serving).

The one which most touches my heart is Arlington. I have two uncles buried there--one who served in WWI and one who served on Normandy Beach in WWII. The first uncle was wounded and gassed, and his injuries caused his death many years later. Yet, I've never known a more ardent patriot. The second uncle could never bring himself to talk about what he experienced on D-Day; he died at age 39 of a massive coronary, partly caused by the sleepless nights of some 20 years following his service.

Great post, GM!

4 great pics GM.

5 Wonderful photos, GM.

6 Great shots make a special share - Thanks! Encompassing selections give us all a thorough view of the meaning of Memorial Day in different places and times - yet the same meaning is with us. Your brother did a great job with this dog sculpture! Canine contribution to our freedom should be remembered.

7 thanks GM as always and for makin a pitstop over at my haunt..what a sweet holiday surprise!

8 I memorized the Flanders Field poem when I was young. To this day, it still brings a lump to my throat and it will always. The sacrifices made by our men and women in uniform make their causes even greater.

9 What a beautiful tour and how incredible that your brother was the creator of one of them! Thank you for this. You probably know about this ACLU business going on, but if not this is in my Absurd Glimpses of Memorial Day 2007 post:

"The ACLU has already filed suit to remove crosses at veterans' memorials, like the Mt. Soledad cross in San Diego and the Sunrise Rock cross in the Mojave Desert, which is now covered by a box."

A blessed Memorial Day to you,
Maggie
Maggie's Notebook

10 Wonderful. Thank you for posting these remembrances of those who have gone before us and paid the price to ensure our liberty and freedom.

I enjoyed the moments I've spent here at your site.

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1 This is FREE SPEECH? Where was this done? I wonder if starting a free in a public place might not be, at least, a misdomenor.

I note that the cowards didn't show their faces.

2 tad, this happened in Portland, Oregon on Sunday, March 18th, but I had not heard about it until today, and I cannot even remember where I spotted it. However, after doing some research, there is a lot of information out on this.

Here's one summary from The Portland Tribune, in which they also descibe a man defecating on a burning U.S. flag.

Little Green Footballs seemed to have jumped on this early.

Right behind them was left-wing Daily Kos, in which the commenters immediately saw a right-wing conspiracy trying to make the Left look bad, some suspected that Karl Rove was behind it, and some deny that this actually took place. Here are representative comments from that site:

quite possibly, the perpatrator was some right-winger who had someone post the pictures to all the right-wing sites. I suspect a setup.

If this were true, who gives a f**k?

What seems strange to me is that IF this burning took place. Why is there nothing in the local media.

Just like the 60's - divide and conquer. It is Rove twisted disinformation. Pay people to make the anti-war people look bad.

I don't think we need to adress the right winger's hysteria on this becuase it's irrational.

3 Little green nutballs and the like loves to find some radical exception and make a rule out of it. I guess that's why they can't understand science either. What they do know is propaganda which is what this is.

4 Hey, they did this, not us. Take some responsibility for the nuts on your side, for which there are a lot more than on ours.

5 "What they do know is propaganda which is what this is."---JE

Hey, they did this, not us. Take some responsibility for the nuts on your side, for which there are a lot more than on ours.--Woody

I have to admire Woody's perseverance. People like JE will never 'take responsibility' for the poltroons who dot his favored political landscape with disturbing frequency. It's always a big CONSPIRACY to 'discredit' the well-meaning but misunderstood 'progressive' citizenry. A very SMALL minority is always exploited by the malicious 'right'.

But we can't 'question their patriotism', I have heard. And to be frank I have actually come around to pretty much agreeing with that prohibition. It took me a while but I now think that we really can't 'question their patriotism'. However the reasons for that are entirely another matter.

But as I said I have to admire Woody's tenacity in searching for the 'last honest progressive'. Perhaps Diogenes can lend you that lantern if he no longer has need of it.

6 Take some responsibility for the nuts on your side, for which there are a lot more than on ours.

Another Woody special... These people are not representative of mainstream liberals. They aren't even representative of most radicals. If we have to 'take responsibility' for these people then you guys have to adopt the KKK and Timothy McVeigh. It's only fair...

7 Moose, the KKK (founded by Democrats) and McVeigh are no more Republican or conservative than you are. Plus, Republicans vocally repudiated them. But, both are dead now, unlike radicals on your side who continue with anti-American protests that go ignored or given silent approval by the overall Left. That's my biggest problem.

For this instance and to his credit, an author at Daily Kos came down on these idiots, but the commenters, who are more representative of the people from that side, blamed Karl Rove. Sometimes, you have to look at who has crawled into bed with you and then decide if you want to get a new bed.

8 Well, I'm not blaming Karl Rove and I certainly find such demonstrations distasteful but, yeah, I do think this falls under the free speech category. As vile as it is, it is protected speech.

9 Too bad that conservatives don't have a protected right to kick leftist wackos in the crotch.

10 If you could get away with it would you *really* want to do that Woody?

11 No. I just like to vent. Anyway, I wouldn't want to get lice on my shoes.

12 moose's and Jack's point is a fair cop - pointing out the worst of leftist behavior does not necessarily tell us much about normative progressive behavior.

There is an additional point, however. The hard left in general and progressives in particular should be leading the charge on the criticism of this. Waving it off as an exception is an inadequate response if you want to convince me of your (general, not moose and Jack) affection for this country and civil debate. No one stopped him. Some even cheered.

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1 Woody, I'm sure you meant George C. Scott's presentation when you said "Many forgot Gen. Patton's advice during the Viet Nam conflict," because Patton Died in an Accident in Germany in 1945 after an automobile accident.

2 My dad knew Patton and stood up to him. He beat him on protocol. In our family that's known as doing your homework.

************************************************************************************
Mark A. Yorkie, AKA RJY: My dad knew Patton and stood up to him. He beat him on protocol. In our family that's known as doing your homework.

Yorkie, you don't tell us if you dad (at the time) outranked General Patton (he wasn't a general all the time you know) or if he was an E-1 recruit who, like you, mouthed off not knowing what he was doing/saying etc. More likely, like you, he mouthed off (you must have learned that crap somewhere). Too, you don't tell us any thing substantive regarding what your father's "superior knowledge of protocol" was (/sarcasm). In other words yorkie, I'm calling you a liar. I know your dad served, and for that I honor him. Know also that my dad served for 32 years, went in as a private in 1940 and retired in 1972 as a full-friggin-Bird-Colonel. My dad too knew something of protocol but had the common sense to let his actions speak louder than his words when in the company of a superior officer. Mostly, my dad was right and at least once he paid that price.

I have serious doubts about your claim, because as we've seen many a time, you not only failed to do your homework (remember your claim about being the youngest ever eagle scout?) but you frequently lie about what you have accomplished. Oh, yes, and yorkie, why would you want to continue to find ways to skirt a banning on a site that obviously holds you in massive disdain? You have been banned from so many sites because of your inane mental meanderings I'm surprised you keep it going. Your dad may have done his homework, you haven't.

3 That's about as much as Woody knows about history. It's Paul Simon song actually. So appropriate.

4 Yeaaaaa! The commenting is working again. Here's what I tried to post two days ago.

G.M., I meant what I wrote, but what I wrote didn't communicate the idea correctly. However, since it caused some confusion, I'm making a small change. Thanks for pointing it out.

****

Why do I think that RJY is really Mark A. York, who G.M. thought he had blocked from commenting, whose comments have that familiar ring of bitterness, and whose dad was Russell J. York (RJY), who served in WWII but not under Patton's command? Nah, it's just a coincidence.

5 Okay, that part of the liar argument lost me, but I admit I haven't read every thread exhaustively. I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in the full explanation, either. I am wondering what, exactly, is a Paul Simon song in this discussion. Was there an especially stupid or profane comment deleted? Or was there an especially stupid or profane criticism of... never mind, I just don't get it.

I think Woody's comment could easily have meant "During Vietnam, many forgot the advice that Patton had given about war over two decades before."

FWIW, my stepfather served under Bradley, and he always thought that Patton was reckless with the lives of those under him. I have no idea whether that was true, or simply what was believed by some at the time. In the fog of war, rumor and supposition sometimes become information.

6 AVI, my impression of Patton is that winning took priority over minimizing losses. Conversely, Montgomery was conservative, which created problems for others who were counting on his progress. I would have a very tough time as a commander discussing "acceptable losses."

7 Patton holds the record for the number of times I've watched a film on the big screen. My most memorable viewing was on an Israeli kibbutz.

Patton remains a controversial figure, it would appear. Several WWII veteran, including one who fought in the Battle of the Bulge and whose unit was the first to cross the Rhine, still call Patton a glory hound.

On the other hand, the father of one of my best friends served under Patton, if I recall correctly, and was a definite supporter. He also firmly believed that Patton had been assassinated and the the investigation was a cover-up.

In any case, the movie portrayed Patton as a believer in America and its mission to the world. We could use more with that attitude today when our self-confidence and the legitimacy of America itself is under increasing attack, not just in Iraq and from jihadists, but also here at home.

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