1 I actually saw this as a fairly heart warming story, especially given the awful predicament people in Gaza are in. Under the very worst conditions, suffereing under a blockage and a crippling occupation here is a young man who obviously sees something inspirational in Obama and in America as well. I should say that since Obama's polcies on Israel are fully aligned with AIPAC and no different than McCain's, the hope that US diplomacy will act as an enforcer of international law, is, sadly, misplced. It's the counterpoint to the stereotype Woody creates, that all muslims instinctively hate American and and violent, vile creatures. This picture reminds me Of Mark Levine excellent new book about metal heads in the Middle East and Pakistan. Levine is a young jewish academic, specialising in Middle East history,also a musician, who travels and has jam sessions with young metal fans in Pakistan, the West Bank, Morroco, Ian and elsewhere. What he finds isnt a clash of civilisations but a real merge, where music and culture are globalised and where this mix is planting the seeds for a genune grassroots rebellion against the dictatorship and lack of freedom in the Arab world. Woody, who I imagine has never travlled to the middle east or read any books on the matter, sees this picture of a young Palestinian and in his racist mind imagines it to be a condemnation of Obama. I see it as a metephorical image of hope and solidarity and of the possibility of going over and above these arguments which charactwerise people as evil and reduce complex cultural exchanges to mere characterisation as evil or othering. I'd reccomend people take a look at Levine's book. I admit that I betrayed my own vow to not engage Woody, but this picture really inspired me.

2

Ian should say Iran. Here's a link, btw, to Levine's book Heavy Metal Islam: Rock, Resistance and the Struggle for the Soul of Islam

http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Metal-Islam-Resistance-Struggle/dp/0307353397

3

I think that Woody should change this post to be titled Woody hates Palestinians, as that would be far more accurate.

4

I don't like foreigners interfering in American politics. 

Is there any chance that this guy helping Obama has no problem with suicide bombers in Israel?

5 Hey Woody, Im looking for the link for this picture in order to send it to some friends. Could you provide me with it. Cheers, polemically so, ahmed

6 Oh, i don't know Woody. The US is a super power whole polcies directluy effect the lives of people abroad. Presidential policies and who winds these contest have a real world impact in Gaza or Iraq a way that the Canadian does not. Peoples fate for better or worse is effected. For that reason it makes some sense that a lad in Gaza would have an opinion and even better that he should be passionate about it. We need more globalisation of the kind not less, it's the counterpoint to bearded fundementalist preaching toxic hatred of the "west" that they know little about.

7

And STILL Jews will vote for him with love and adoration.

Sort of like Larry King shmoozing with Ahmedinejad "Gee! You don't look old enough to have grown kids, fancy THAT?!!  " 

you can't make this stuff up!

8

Okay, that does it.  I’m not voting for Barack Obama now!

9

Ahmed, the link is the AP credit given at the end of the paragraph--or, you could use ours because, surely, your friends would appreciate our viewpoint.

Mustang, thank you!  It's nice to know that we helped you with your struggle to choose a candidate. :-)

10 A Pseudostinian is getting out the vote for Barack Hussein Obama???  Well, one can count on the ummah hangning together.

11

"A Pseudostinian is getting out the vote for Barack Hussein Obama??? "

This place is infested with the worst kind of racism and hysteria. The interestng thing is that the more you guys attack Obama by muslim baiting, thus exposing your own ignorance, the more people flock to support his campaign. I think that there's a level of disgust at this kind of stuff, which is genuinely refreshing. Straight up question for you Always on Watch. I ahve friends who live in the West Bank who can trace their ancestry to that land for generations, both christianb and muslim. Millions of people who have been historically pushed off thier land live in the West Bank and Gaza. They have an idenity and a history that can be traced and they are Palestinian. Yet, you seem to be saying thta Palestinains don't exist, that they are a made up people. This is pretty far out. Who are these people then and why do they live there. If they are frauds, as you suggest, should they be expelled or ethnically cleansned. And what should I tell my Palestinian friends, that they are Pseudostinian. There is an immense amonunt of schlolarship in the field of middle eastern studies, much of it not very political, but dry historical stuff about the history of Palestinian people, their writing, poetry and history. What of this have you read? And from what historical accounts did you arrive at your opinion.

ps what would you think if someone half across the word, who knew nothing about you, said their are no americans, only pseducans?

 

pps So Obama is part of the Ummah? Huh? I dont think there is anything wrong with a muslim wanting to be president but it seems clear to me that Obama is not muslim nor has he ever been. You disagree. I'm wondering how you came to this stagerring conclusion

 

12 "ps what would you think if someone half across the word, who knew nothing about you, said their are no americans, only pseducans?"
I'd think they were ignorant.
Especially since they have most likely seen American Money, heard of American authors, poets, statesmen, that actually predate 1964. He could read books about Americans and America some written during the 18th century.
The funny thing is that no one can show me a Palestinian coin, book, poet or statesman that actually predates the 1964 war.
March 31, 1977, Zahir Muhsein, at that time being a PLO executive committee member, said:
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel."

13

The Palestinians didn't have a country  They just roamed an area--like American Indians.  Since Indian reservations worked out so well here, they could have something similar, and we could call it Gaza.

Look, I don't have anything against the Palestinians.  I just don't like terror and those who approve of it.  If anything, they have some some explaining and cleaning up to do if they want acceptance of their positions. 

14

Let me respond breiafly as I have a whole series of deadlines I'm behind. Warren's objection is IMHO quite wrong but it raies an interesdting philisophical question. At what point can we say "nations" arise, in what ways are communities imagined and how is this tied to historyu and the formation of nation states. Israel, for example arose as a nation state, in a miodern sesne, witha flag and a standing army only in1948. America was once a series of colonies and before inhabited by native people. It's simply untrue and ahistorical to suggest that there was no expression of Palestinian identity before 1967 (warren says 1964 bwar where i assunme he means 1967) What he he then say about the British mandate period where the british put down large scale rebbellions, for independence at that time involving jewish, christain and muslim inhabitants of Palestine. These rebellions at the time was the l;argest mass reistance to the british, compared tp some of the later campaigns led by Ghandhi in India. As for violence I agree wityh Woody but where is his comdemnation of the greater vioence waged by an occupy8ng army agauinst a much less armed population. Any examination od say B'tselem records will show that acts that are illegal undr internatuionaol law: atgertted killings, confiscation of property, willful; killing, use opf human shields are regularly occuring in gaza ans the west bank. Finla tghing is Woody's objection, saying that because of awful acts commited in the name of Palestinians their claim to self deternation is recued. I think that Christopher Hitchens answers this eloquanltly in a eulogy for tghe late and great Israeli dissiden Israel Shahak. It's a wonderful; pice. Here'as Hitch

"In early June I sat on a panel, in front of a large and mainly Arab audience, with Thomas Friedman of the New York Times. Our hosts, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, had asked for a discussion of contrasting images of the Israel-Palestine conflict. The general tempo of the meeting was encouragingly non-tribal; there were many criticisms of Arab regimes and societies, and one of our co-panelists, Raghida Dergham, had recently been indicted in her absence by a Lebanese military prosecutor for the offense of sharing a panel discussion with an Israeli. However, it’s safe to say that most of those attending were aching for a chance to question Friedman in person. He was accused directly at one point of writing in a lofty and condescending manner about the Palestinian people. To this he replied hotly and eloquently, saying that he had always believed that “the Jewish people will never be at home in Palestine until the Palestinian people are at home there.”

That was well said, and I hadn’t at the time read his then-most-recent column, so I didn’t think to reply. But in that article he wrote that Chairman Arafat, by his endless double-dealing, had emptied the well of international sympathy for his cause. This is a very Times-ish rhetoric, of course. You have to think about it for a second. It suggests that rights, for Palestinians, are not something innate or inalienable. They are, instead, a reward for good behavior, or for getting a good press. It’s hard to get more patronizing than that. During the first intifada, in the late 1980s, the Palestinians denied themselves the recourse to arms, mounted a civil resistance, produced voices like Hanan Ashrawi and greatly stirred world opinion. For this they were offered some non-contiguous enclaves within an Israeli-controlled and Israeli-settled condominium. Better than nothing, you might say. But it’s the very deal the Israeli settlers reject in their own case, and they do not even live in Israel “proper”. (They just have the support of the armed forces of Israel “proper”.) So now things are not so nice and many Palestinians have turned violent and even – whatever next? – religious and fanatical. Naughty, naughty. No self-determination for you. And this from those who achieved statehood not by making nice but as a consequence of some very ruthless behavior indeed."

 

15

One more quick reply to Warren before I'm off. The thing about using and finding scare quotes, is that we can all do it and therefore it tends to ne a weak way to make a point. That said, since you used one, let me match you, as well...oh and im still waiting to hear from always on watch, who has a web site bordering on the insane. Here's my quotes from David Ben Guirion who was the first Israeli prime minister and who ironically is far more honest on these issues than Woody, Warren or Always on Watch

" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs.  There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

16 It's no surprise that my replies have yileded no responses for the peddlers of narrow minded thinking and right wing talking points, who ewear their collective ignorance as sign of honour

17 Ahmed, you said, "Let me respond breiafly...," and then you went on with two long comments that exceeded my word limit.  Could you give us the short version? 

18 They're not too long, Woodster, in fact, if you make a brief exception, you might just learn something. I'm still waiting for Always on Watch, to reply as he seems to believe that Obama is muslim and part of a global Ummah conspiracy. The amazing thing about people like Always on Watch  is the extent to which they are mimicking classical anti-Semitic trash in their campaigns against Muslims/Arabs.

19

The real non-surprise, Ahmed, is that you don't see your own POV as being evident of narrow minded thinking and left wing talking points. 

I could care less about muslims/arabs.  My talking points have always been about Moslem fundamentalists who believe that terrorism is the way to advance their cause.  You on the other hand, believe that a small country called Israel is a terrorist state because they actively, with no apologies to anyone, defend their people against incessant attacks by the very people that claim statehood for the Palistanians.  The true fact is that a Palestinian state could have peacefully been set up anytime between 1948 and 1964.  You moan and groan about Gaza, but when the Israeli's pulled out of Gaza, the Palistinians immediately started rocketing civilians in Israel.  Your blindness to the depredations of the PLO and HAMAS is absolutely amazing and intellectually dishonest.  And don't feed me any garbabe about you have always been against terrorism... you have a penchant for saying "...yes but!" when confronted with facts on the ground.

The next thing you know you will be claiming a massacre in Jenin and Mohammad al Dura was killed diliberately by israeli soldiers.  Give it up, you are a pathological supporter of an empty suit and the cause of Muslim fanatics.

 

20

There' s so much slander, misinformation and distortion in Roper's overheated response that it's hard to fully confront. So, to make Woody happy I will stick to his word limit. I have, in fact, never advocated anything but peaceful coexsitence in Israel/Palestine predicated on the full recognition of international law, an adknowldegement and accounting of history and equality. At this late date I think that the diplpmatic record, is and has been quite clear. My own position which Roper willfully dostorts is stated above. He also seems to think that the maintainance of a complex system involving stationing tens of thousands of armed troops in another peopels land, creating settlemts with an infurstucture of of roads, barbs wires and walls, conencted wioth checkpoints, giving settlers extra rights predicated on ethnicity all the while employing force coercion and violence is somehow "defensive". The interesting thing about the American right is how narrow their expereinces are. Palin didn't own a passport, Bush had no interest in the rest of the world and I gurantee that Roper and others have read little to no scholarlty books on this topic nor have they visited the middle east, yet they create the most grodd generalizations preidcated on ignorance. But dont worry Roper and Woody, when Barack wins you will not be imprisoned for ideologic crimes, a simpel reeducation camp will do :-)

21

As for terrorism, Im consitent. I oppose violence both against innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians, as all life in equally valuable and precious and it's gods gift. On the other hand this is the sort of "defensive" violence Roper, who left Marc Copers in disgrace3, supports

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=b%27tselem&search_type=&aq=f 

22 It's good Roper that you could care less about Mulims/Arabs whatever that means. What then do you make of people like Always on Watch who comments here, who believes that Barack Hussein Obama, as he says, is part of the global ummah and a muslim conspiracy. Powell has denounced this as essentially anti American, yet no major Republican figure has stepped up to do so. What's your opinion on always of watch'as claim. Will you denounce it and call it for what it is, small minded bigotry which shopuld have no place in enlightened dicourse. Let's hear back, Ropes

23

Ahmed, you are very good at the a-historical twaddle the left pushes about Palestinians being "pushed off" their land.  How screwy can you get?  Here is your comment regarding "Muslims and Arabs"

is the extent to which they are mimicking classical anti-Semitic trash in their campaigns against Muslims/Arabs.

My response was that I don't care about Muslims and Arabs, I care about Islamofascists and their fellow travelers and that has been my stance all along and you damn well know it. 

As far as "slander, misinformation and distortion" you truly tickle me as you are the epitome of that description.  You are a fool and a rabble rouser who comes not to argue points, but to castigate anyone with a point of view different than your own by using ad homonym and pseudo facts.  Pushed off indeed!  The facts are that they left of their own volition because the Arab powers that be in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia said that they were going to push the Israeli's into the sea and they needed to get out of the way.  Likewise, please tell us about the number of Jews "pushed" off their land in the Arab countries, the number was larger and they had no choice.  The Arabs/Muslims in Israel did have a choice, and please note that many stayed and are citizens with voting rights in Israel.  Can you say the same for Jews in the Arab countries?  No?  Thought not!

24 The perspective that you're positing, that Palestinians left on their own choice in 1948, is now rebuked almost uniformly in lmost of the scholalryt analysis and is widely discredited even ion Zionist historiography, even beyond the "new historian" like Benny Morris, Illon pappe and others. There's simply no point debating an ideologue like Roper who convinienlt ducked out of answering the quetions in my post. I've posted a long email from an ardent Zionist to Andrew Sulliven, i probably have some major disagreements with the writer, but the letter shows a greater appreaciation for nuance, understaningm historical fact and compassion than Roper could ever muster. I'd recommend he read it as it's under the last. So Ropes, I'm still waiting for your verdict on Always on Watch's Obama/Ummah claim.

25 I should also say that ISraeli Zionist leaders like Ben Guirion and others were far more honest about their intentions and attitudes towards the indegenous poplualtion of the land than Roper. It's still true that the dialogue in Israel itself about these questions and issues is so much further than in the United Statrs and there is a greater understanding of both the history and present conditions in west bank and gaza than there is here. I challenge Roper to look at pibes in say Haarezt, one of Israels largest and most influecial newspapers, and ask whether or not he is even capable of getting the same information from the American press. IF not, then why?

26 Here's someone with a far deeper connection to Israel than Roper, who shows more honesty, compassion and integrity in one paragraph than Roper has shown in the entirety of his writings on the topic. It was sent to Andrew Sulliven "I am an observant American Jew, my grandparents were survivors of Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen, and I am a proud Zionist, although one who identifies more with the J-Street Project than AIPAC. I am also a supporter of Barack Obama. I have been following the "controversy" over Rashid Khalidi and just read the article in The Nation to which you linked. I know nothing else about Khalidi, other than some biographical information I picked up on Wikipedia and news reports. I have to say, based on the article, he seems to have a very reasonable, thoughtful approach to the "situation" in Israel and Palestine. There are obviously lots of emotions on both the Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian sides, but it is the extremists on both sides of the fence that keep the pot simmering at all times. When I think about the issue from the Palestinian perspective (something I wish more of my fellow supporters of Israel would do from time to time) I find it impossible to come up with a more reasonable take on the situation than the one presented by Khalidi. To love and support Israel, and to view it as the ultimate protection for Jews from another Holocaust, does not require one to completely disregard the suffering of the Palestinian people, most of whom committed no sin other than to be born in a land claimed by another. I can't imagine what it must feel like to one day wake up and be told your land is no longer yours and you have to leave. My own people have been in that situation before, and it turns my stomach that the experience of my family is used to justify keeping another people down. As Khalidi rightly points out, sympathizing with the Palestinian situation does not mean excusing them for their own impotence in bringing about the changes necessary to end that situation. There's enough blame to go around, but the world would be a much better place if everyone could at least see things from the viewpoint of the "other side."

27

Ahmed: 

"As Khalidi rightly points out, sympathizing with the Palestinian situation does not mean excusing them for their own impotence in bringing about the changes necessary to end that situation."

I have no sympathy whatsoever for a people that believe that they need only wait to have their Arab sponsors push Israel into the see so they can "take over," and kill all the Jews.  I have no sympathy with a people whatsoever who blow up children with suicide bombs or strap bombs to mentally retarded girls and boys or who get on a bus full of children and blow it to smithereens.  I have no sympathy with Governments such as Syria, Egypt and Jordan let alone Saudi Arabia who could have established a Palestinian state any time but kept the Palestinians in camps so that they could have a rallying point to further the hatred against Israel. I have no sympathy for a people who demand a right of return but would kill any Jew who tried to return to their homelands as well.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for a people that demand that Israel leave Gaza and when they do, immediately start firing rockets into civilian homes/schools in Israel. I have no sympathy whatsoever for a people that are left functioning structures/farms/plants by the Israeli's, tear them apart and then claim that they are destitute. 

Ahmed: 

"So Ropes, I'm still waiting for your verdict on Always on Watch's Obama/Ummah claim."

Still playing the guilt by association card Ahmed, I thought you were smarter than that but I see you aren't.  I don't censor anyone here except when they violate my language rule.  That includes you.  Nor do I respond to everyone's post no matter what their belief is.  I don't respond to all of your inane and asinine comments so does that mean I subscribe to them?  Geeze Ahmed, are you really that stupid and uncomprehending?  This is a place for free speech, and as long as the rules are followed you and anyone else can comment in any way they want.  What's so hard about that that you cannot seem to get it through your filters?  As far as Obama being a Muslim, well, he says he converted and became a Christian.  I don't really buy that because he attended a church where the most foul race baiting racist rhetoric was mouthed on a regular basis and he said nothing and did nothing and that doesn't sound very Christian to me.  Only when it embarrassed him did he "quit."  Now, it is a fact that he was registered in a Muslim school in Indonesia as a Muslim so I would have to guess that he is now an Apostate.  How about you Ahmed, do you believe that he is an Apostate and should be killed?  That is part of what the Muslim faith says, you say you are Muslim so that must mean you believe it too right?  I have NEVER attended a Christian church that was blatantly racist or that would even come close to tolerating Wrights' stuff from the Pulpit, and if I did, I would immediately get up and walk out loudly denouncing the preacher.  Would you, if you went to a Mosque, heard the kind of crap that says push the Jews into the sea stand up, decry the hate and walk out.  I would, I would hope you would too.  Damning you with faint praise?  Well, you seem so good at it I thought I'd try my hand.  Doesn't feel very good does it?

Get over it you silly little pseudo intellectual, your view of the Arab world is skewed, crooked and off target.  Wake up and smell the roses. 

28 Ropes, you're actually quoting from an eloquant written by a zionist, not me. The rest of your rant (how on earth did we get to apostacy) is so deluded and deranged, beyond the fact that it responds to nothing that I've written, that it warrants no real response.

29 The amazing thing about people like Always on Watch is the extent to which they are mimicking classical anti-Semitic trash in their campaigns against Muslims/Arabs. Ahmed@1:49 P.M.10/31/08

So what you are saying, ahmed, is people like Always On Watch (which is a comment, btw which is considered hateful--anytime you use the phrase "people like so and so" you are making a broad and hateful comment, bordering on racism or in this case, since AOW is female, misogynistic and maybe racist also since AOW is white and you are most likely not) where was I? oh yes, people like AOW are using the tactics the arab world uses against the jews?

Oh my, turn about is supposed to be fair play ahmed. The only difference is what AOW says is true while the anti-semitic bashing from the arabs is chock full of lying goodness. For instance, do you really believe jews use the blood of arab for food?

30 That Arab arrogance is just oozing from Ahmed, as it does from Obama.  Obama is a closet muslim; as his association with Reverend Wright is as close as he ever got to Christianity - and Wright teaches Black Liberation Theology - which kills any gods that don't agree with the black struggle.

But then again, Wright's "Church" also accepts moslems, and Wright himself claims he is a former moslem.

In the Islamic world, if your father was a moslem, you were a moslem.  That holds true for Obama, which is why so many Islamic leaders have come forward saying that they not only support him, but they understand what he is doing...lying to steal the election.

Why should Ahmed have such a problem with this?  Takeyya is accepted practice in the moslem world.

31 hehehe "zionist", LOL what is Ahmed's problem with Jews...or dare I ask?  Anti-semite! 

It is apparent that Ahmed thinks of the infidels as dogs, just as so many of Obama's friends do, such as the Iraqi billionaire, Auchi.

32 Wow!  Ahmed thinks so much of himself that he thinks we're going to bow down and parse through all of that hot air and bloviating!  Typical, though, we're the ones who must pay the jizyah!

33 I am going to attempt to post a video in here -regarding Al-Mansour pulling the strings.

34 That didn't work; so look at it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeBK80YuOUA

35

Hmmmm....I see that Ahmed has maligned me.

Oh, well.  Speaking the truth (Pseudostinians) gets me in trouble every time.

P.S. to Kender, Thanks!

 

36 I would take it as a compliment, AOW, consider the source.

37 Hey Ackmed,
Muslim is not a race so how can it be racism?  That is the trouble with people especially as it relates to Obama and/or Muslim, it has to be racism.

The fact is, we don't like foreigners interfering in our elections.

Perhaps this guy should spend more time educating his own people rather than trying to educate Americans to support a Marxist for president.  Maybe he could teach his Muzzie buddies that shooting rockets into Israel is wrong.

BTW, Obama and McCain have vastly different views on Israel.  Their stated positions are the same but Obama is only saying what he needs to in order to get elected.

Ask the LA Times to release the video where he accuses Israel of genocide and says they have no claims.

His position on Israel (his real position) is why Muslims support him. 

38 I don't think Ahmed knows the meaning of "brevity".. Yes, BD, Obama - as was noted by the fellow from Ali Abunimah at The Electronic Intifada, 4 March 2007 http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6619.shtml "How Obama Learned to Love Israel". Ali Abunimah points out that he's changed! But Gaddafi understands better than Ali when he said, he's just lying to win the election.

39

Things that I've leanrned while spening way to much time on GM Roper's website 1) that I support killing apostates of Islam 2) that GM Roper doens't consider Obama a real Christian (i wonder what he would think of Falwell or Pat Roberson's faith 3) that Obama is a closet muslim 4) that I thnk jews drink arab blood 5) that I show Arab arrogance 6) that my  name is ackmed 7) that I'm an anti semite

I think that you guys here, with your demonstrable ignorance and bigotry are, in many ways, the mirror reflection of the toxic mullahs preaching hatred in the middle east of a "west" they knw little about. My own politics, which no one spoke too, before making all sort of racist and ugly assumptions are in fact reflectled in my own words, in fact I wrote a long reply in post one about the globalisation of identities being acting as a counterroce for the flase assumptions around the clash of civilisation theory. That my own posts were ignored is of no suprise. You guys in fact deserve to suffer a defeat on the 4th, you've shown all your ugliness in these posts. In some ways, humour is the only appropriate response to the insanity of Ropers commentators. So, I now dedicate the following song to Roper and his crew, who really need to get out more or at least pick up a book

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfTpB-KRJhw&feature=related

 

 

40 My point still stands. Where is that artifact that proves there was a Palestinian people, a people unique and different than Jordanians or any other Arab Muslim people?

How can this "Palestinian" people arrive from nowhere and claim ownership of a State which never existed?

If anything, the land where Israel now exists was taken by right of conquest, a right that Nations have always recognized.

Roughly the same number of Jews were displaced by the Arab countries and had their property confiscated as Arabs that fled from Israel. Israel absorbed those Jews. Yet the Arab States have held their fellow Arabs, (those former residents, maybe), at arms length refusing to integrate them within their societies and thereby keeping a open, festering wound.

I'm of Tsalagi ancestry and unlike the "Palestinians", we are an actual people with a unique language and culture. I can site actual Tsalagi people who existed before 1968. I can show you legal documents and a written language with citations of disinterested foreigners to back them up. We had, and still have a unique culture.

Perhaps you know the Tsalagi better as the "Cherokee".

Can you show me any of these things that relate to "Palestinians", Muslim?

There have always been Jews in Israel, I can't say the same of "Palestinians". They can't even claim their suicide bombing sets them apart.

Don't hand me any crap about American Indians should be sympathetic to "the plight of the Palestinian people". It strikes me in the same fashion as the Gays that try to garner sympathy from Blacks by invoking the civil rights movement.

41 And Ahmed,
Comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point.

But that's what I would expect from an Obama supporter.

42

Sine Roper, who left Marc Coopers in disgrace, brought up Jenin here is human right watch's report and condemnation of the willful and illegal use of force and killing in the 2002 invasion. Their report is confirmed by what amnesty and other groups documented in their own examination of the fighting, it should be mentioned that Israel worked to block organisations from going in there in the first place. These reports seem to me to be accurate and have not been disputed by anyone including the IDF. My opinion about Jenin follows from reading the reports, if Roper can somehow prove to me that thye are wrong, I'd love to hear it

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/143/2002

43

Im getting wat behind my on my academic work, but interestingly enough I reviewed this book by an Israeli scholar a couple of years back. It might be of some interest to Warren

http://www.amazon.com/Palestinian-People-History-Baruch-Kimmerling/dp/0674011295

44 I should say that in many ideas people had regional identies which weren't subsumed in natioin states until after the rise of colonialism, which in many ways imposed those indentities onto people. That's the case in South Africa, where I grew up. It's true that jews lived in the area of Palestine, in fact my Palestinian friends mom was breast fed by a Jewish neighbour, as her mother had medical barriers to do this. It seems to me that the entire history of the land suggests that it had never, historically, exclusive  home to one people but mnay. And that conflict has also historically existed but so has coesixtence. There are models for both. I don't think that there's anything instrisic which prevents jewish and Palestinians living together in equality, in fact there is some historical presedence. Jews has not received perfect treatment in Arab lands but they have often, in the past, found themselves more welcome there, then in Europe where genocidal anti semitism ultimately resulted in the killing of over six million. Hope for Israel/Palestine must be in equal and just conexistence. I've always said that

45 Ahmed,
Here's a question for you: Does Obama's middle name signify Arab ancestry?

I'm asking in all seriousness. I have quite a few black friends; none of them nor their friends/family know any with the middle name of "Hussein."

Having read Obama's chapter on faith in The Audacity of Hope, I recognize that his emphasis on community is reminiscent of the idea of ummah. We see Pseudostinians (See The Palestinian Mandate, drawn up after WWI) supporting Obama. Hence, my quip of a few days ago.

Is Obama a Moslem? Every non-Moslem Arab I know -- and I know many -- believe that he is. Every non-Moslem I know who grew up in a Moslem nation other than a Middle Eastern one also believes the same.

I have publicly stated many times that I think that Obama may be a Moslem. Just because Obama says he's a Christian doesn't make it so. In my view, at best, Obama is a syncretist.

You believe that I am a bigot. What a joke! The friends I have run the gamut of every ethnic group and very religion. I also have friends who are atheists and agnostics; in fact, my dearest friend is all the world is an agnostic. As a foreign-language major, I'm a multiculturalist in the old sense of the word.

PS: You said earlier in this thread that I didn't respond to your accusations. For your information, I have a life outside the Internet, and that life takes precedence over what goes on here on the web. Your reaction to my quip speaks for itself. Indeed, I make the quip just to see your reaction, which was quite telling.

46 Let's take a fact-based look at Obama's journey of faith.

From http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/barack_obama_red_diaper_baby_1.html :

In a 2006 speech, Obama explained: "I was not raised in a particularly religious household, as undoubtedly many in the audience were. My father, who returned to Kenya when I was just two, was born Muslim but as an adult became an atheist. My mother, whose parents were non-practicing Baptists and Methodists, was probably one of the most spiritual and kindest people I've ever known, but grew up with a healthy skepticism of organized religion herself. As a consequence, so did I."
In describing his grandparents as Baptist and Methodist, Obama was contradicting himself. Describing his grandfather in Dreams (p17), Obama wrote: "In his only skirmish into organized religion, he would enroll the family in the local Unitarian Universalist congregation...."
Like grandfather, like grandson: Barack Obama would make his "only skirmish into organized religion", joining Chicago's Trinity United Church, inspired by anti-American church leader, Reverend Jeremiah Wright. He held tightly to Trinity until it endangered his presidential campaign. Then he quit. This is the sole basis of Obama's description of himself as a "Christian.

47

Ahmed: 

Things that I've leanrned while spening way to much time on GM Roper's website 1) that I support killing apostates of Islam 2) that GM Roper doens't consider Obama a real Christian (i wonder what he would think of Falwell or Pat Roberson's faith 3) that Obama is a closet muslim 4) that I thnk jews drink arab blood 5) that I show Arab arrogance 6) that my  name is ackmed 7) that I'm an anti semite

Ahmed, what you are is a practiced prevaricator.  I your comments above are all twists of truth.  For example I never said you supported killing apostates, I asked the question.  I said (I think, without taking the time to go back and look) that islamofascists support the killing of apostates... are you then saying you are an islamofascist?  <--- see Ahmed, that piece of punctuation is called a question mark.  It indicates that the person speaking is asking a question.  got that?  OK, now, I would not consider the statements of Falwell and Robertson to be very Christian indeed.  But I am an imperfect Christian myself, lacking the grace of the Christ. The question regarding blood was do you buy the blood libel or not... not that you do buy the blood libel. 

Ahmed, and for your information, I did not leave Cooper's site in disgrace, I left it in Disgust at the language and inability of anyone there with a few minor exceptions, to be able to debate the issues without the nastiness.  Such as what you get here.

Your questions regarding refugees from Israel can be answered here with quotes from contemporary fellows: 

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948­-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al­Janub (August 16, 194 :

The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

As far as your outright lies regarding Jenin the world acknowledges that no massacre occurred: 

Palestinian hospital sources in Jenin put the total number of dead at 52. Last week's Human Rights Watch report also said 52 Palestinians died. Israel says 46 Palestinians died. Israel says that 46 Palestinians died, all but three of whom were combatants. Palestinian medical sources have confirmed that at least one of these civilians died after Israel withdrew from Jenin on April 12, as a result of a booby-trapped bomb that Palestinian fighters had planted accidentally going off.

Yet one month ago, the media's favorite Palestinian spokespersons, such as Saeb Erekat - a practiced liar if ever there was one -- spoke first of 3000 Palestinian dead, then of 500. Without bothering to check, the international media just lapped his figures up.

Face it Ahmed, you are dishonest and disengenuous... try again after you have faced yourself in a mirror.  Personally, I don't see how you can stand yourself or sleep with yourself at all.

48 I don't see why he's picking on AOW, anyway.

Just this Halloween, or thereabouts, which I thought was appropriate, the audio of Obama's grandmother was released, saying that she was there in Kenya when Obama was born.

There are several ministers who took the trouble to tape an interview with her, just in case the documents regarding his birth weren't released. For some reason, his birth records in Mombosa are "top secret", imagine that.

And now we come to find out that - not only is Obama's Luo tribe a muslim tribe, but that Odinga is from that same African muslim tribe. Now who'd have thought it?

The opposition party that was responsible for all of the violence was from the minority Luo tribe, which is a Muslim tribe that supported Mr. Raila Odinga for president. Raila Odinga is a Marxist socialist who graduated from the East Germany Magdeburg University in 1970 on a scholarship from the East German government. He named his first born son after Fidel Castro. Raila Odinga spent six years in prison for his admitted involvement in the bloody coup attempt in 1982 to over take and assissinate Daniel Arap Moi, Kenya’s President. Mr. Odinga has publicly admitted to being the leader of that coup in his 2006. Mr. Odinga is the cousin of United States Senator Barack Obama. Mr. Obama is from the same Muslim tribe, the Luo Tribe, as Mr. Odinga.

Bishop Ron McRae's affidavit says:

Additionally, it is common knowledge throughout both the Christian and Muslim communities in Kenya, that contrary to news media propaganda here in the United States, US Senator Barack Obama is a Muslim and not a Christian, and that he was born in Mombasa, Kenya and not in the State of Hawaii as falsely purported by the Obama campaign for presidency of the United States. Mr. Obama’s cousin ran his failed campaign for the Kenyan presidency in the identical fashion of Senator Obama’s American campaign strategy, and that being to join a nominal Christian Church in order to publicly profess to be a Christian, while maintaining their actual Muslim beliefs, in order to sway public opinion away from the actual fact of his strong Muslim beliefs, family and goals. It is a known fact that membership in the United Church of Christ in Chicago, where Barack Obama was a member, does not require muslims to renounce their Islamic faith in order to join the UCC church. Throughout Kenya it is and was well publicized in the media that a Memorandum of Understanding agrement, attached as Exhibit “3″, between Raila Odinga and Shiek Abdullahi Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum, was signed by Odinga in August 29, 2007 in which Raila Odinga promised if elected to implement drastic changes including but not limited to the following:

Recognize “Islam as the only true religion”“Islamic leaders would have an oversight rule to monitor activities of ALL other religions (emphasis in the original)Installation of Shariah courts in every jurisdiction to implement Islamic lawImplement a ban on Christian preaching Because of the seriousness of all of the above, as a Christian and a citizen of the United States, this preacher could no longer sit idly by knowing these things and continue to minister in both Kenya and the United States.

From the Phil Berg documents filed on the 31st - and imagine that, his Berg's site is mysteriously down, so I was lucky and am grateful to be one of the individuals granted privy to them; to help spread the message to counter Obama's lies.

It's all very concerning information about the Messiah, and most of it he's been hiding.  He hides his past, he denies his radical connections, including the fact that his trip to Pakistan between his stint at Occidental and Columbia would have been impossible for an American citizen--because they were under martial law at the time.

If you asked me, LOL...the 'racist' meme is a rather weak argument -amd shouldn't gain traction. Allah managed to short Ahmed some IQ points in exchange for giving him a whopping helping of superiority complex.

49

Alright some responses to the various commentators here, as I'll try to be respectful. AOW is simply beyond the pale. The very idea that "muslim" could be used as a smear against Obama, is an affront to MLK's idea that we should be judged by the content of our character. Colin Powell rightly denounded it and it seems clear that the obsessive attempts by AOW and his seemingly idiotic non arab muslim friends to lnk Obama to Islam say much more about the accusers than anything else. Simply disgusting, period.

As for Roper, where to begin? The very idea that you could imagine that myself, someone with secular left politics, who in this very thread decried "toxic mullahs preaching hatred of a west they know little about" shows how much of a racist and idiot you are, IQ notwithstanding. It's interesting, too, to look at our sources. While I reference Israeli newspapers, scholarship and a number of human right organisations Roper only produces the propaganda work of out front advocacy groups. He raised Jenin not me. I responded saying that my opinion of what happened is based on the documented reports of amnesty and human rights watch who went there and studied the fithing, they accused the IDF of war crimes including the deliberate targetting innoecents, use of human shields and willful destruction of property I've included links to thier reports. Roper has yet to tell me if he thinks the organisations are lying nor has he (or the IDF) contridicted the reports. I very much doubt he even bothered to read them. I think that our approaches speak volumes.

As for sleeping, thanks Roper for asking. I find that if I get a run in the day and then chamomile tea while I read at night, sleep is no problem. I like about 7 to 8 hours. About Coopers, I have some big differences with say Marc, reg and Balter and I've probalby taken them each on at some point. That said, I've never once doubted their intellectual curiosity, honesty , compassion and sincere desire to commitment to seeing politics as a way of creating a more humane society. That i cannot say the same of you, is becoming increasingly obvious in the awful and unhinged stuff you post. Sad, really 

50 Yiikes im too tired. The first part should say that the very fact that you could imagine, somene like myself with secular left poiltics, believes in killing apostastes...shows how much of an idiot...

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