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1

Ironic that awareness of 1984 is questioned.  In Orwell's book it was believed that he that controls the past also controls the future.  Consequently great efforts were made by the ruling authorities to destroy the past by rewriting history to satisfy the dictates of Big Brother. 

Ron Brown

Pittsburgh, Pa.

2

GM claims there's some kind of "anti-Western" agenda in American public schools.

What's anti-Western about Bill Clinton, Maya Angelou and Phillis Wheatley?

It is a shocker, though, that you son's history textbook only included one page on World War II. What can you say about it in a single page?

In reality, all history textbooks are flawed and the amount of time available to the average high school student to learn history is woefully inadequate.

If I were teaching history in high school, I'd make clear that the most important thing to understand is that we are only scratching the surface in our textbooks and other materials. To know and understand history requires far more in depth study and focus than are practical for high school students.

Given GM's biases, I assume he would prefer high schools teach the "facts" that he believes support a right-wing worldview.

 

 

3 There has been a massive coverup but the 'I have a dream' speach was stolen, not written by MLK. I know i'm not supposed to say anything bad about a dead man, but then I see him as  the biggest con man to hit this country. that is until B Hussein Obama.

4

In Orwell's 1984, the government destroys written evidence of history it doesn't like.

 

On this blog, GM bowdlerizes excerpts to destroy evidence of history that contradicts his partisan claims.

 

The link cited in his post above isn't to the study itself, but rather to a USA Today report on the study. The report includes the following lines:

 

``51% knew that the controversy surrounding Sen. Joseph McCarthy focused on communism.''

 

``88% knew the bombing of Pearl Harbor led the USA into World War II''

 

Why did GM edit out those stats?

 

Moreover, the report says:

 

``The nation's current focus on improving basic reading and math skills in elementary school might only make matters worse, giving short shrift to the humanities — even if children can read and do math.''

 

   Could it be that the report actually contradicts GM's talking point about how liberals have taken over education? So his response was to cut out the parts he didn't like, just like the government did in 1984. Beautiful…

5

First of all, let me posit that my commenters McL... and Hal have a deficiency in reading comprehension.  They must have gone to the schools that they claim are terrific in terms of teaching humanities etc.  Had they better comprehension of what they read, or, better yet had they not their own biases to overcome, they would have noted that the article is authored by and the point of view is WOODY's. 

Woody and I don't see eye to eye on education in many respects.  I do however note that we also do agree in many respects. I also don't censor what the Woodster chooses to write about. 

I attended school from 1952 (first grade) through '64 (H.S.) and obtained my Bachelors degree in 69, masters in 73 and an additional 30 hours grad work between 78 and 94 just for the fun of attending school.  I also taught at the University level from 1987 through 2005 (till sidelined by cancer).  I can state, categorically that the college freshman of the last dozen years was less prepared than the average high school freshman or sophomore when I was in high school.  I have had some grad students who couldn't spell or put 4 interconnected sentences together to save their lives.  I've had college seniors who read at a 8th grade level, if that.  I have had grad students fail take home exams where all 100 questions were taken directly from the chapters indicated because they lacked the ability to discern what the question was asking. 

I won't go on and on about the the educational problems of today, some of it is directly due to the Teachers Unions protecting incompetent teachers, but most are dedicated, hard working and very competent.  I won't blame the parents, though it is difficult for me to imagine parents who cannot fathom the need to monitor the students work, take an interest in their education or meet with the teachers and acknowledge that their kid was a brat and not attack the teacher for "having it in for little Johnny."  My beloved daughter is a teacher, as was my sister and my mother and I've heard the horror stories from all three about the difficulties of getting students to study or the parents to get involved. 

Of course, without parent involvement, and a thorough review of texts, any publisher can add any detail to any text they wish, and most parents won't know, because they can't be bothered.

Hal, McLovin, you both have a D - on your reading skills and a flat F for your bias control abilities.

6

GM: Maybe you should consider removing the "I am GM Roper and I Approve This Message'' tagline. Whatever you might say about my reading comprehension, you might consider that your failure to understand, apparently, the meaning of those words raises questions about your own.

I don't doubt, however, that the bottom end of the lowest common denominator for school kids is lower today than it was in the 1950s and 1960s.

A large part of that is simple demographics In those days, the poorest people were less likely to even send their kid to school, while the lower middle class was much less economically and socially precarious than it is today:

The key is that in the 1950s and 1960s, American manufacturing still had a magnificent edge in terms of cost and technical development over all global rivals. That meant that we could have a large number of low and medium-skill jobs that paid wages that were good enough and steady enough to allow a single wage earner to support the whole family.

The vast majority of today's families, especially poor families, can only get by if both parents work. This leaves a lot less time and energy for helping kids with homework and, just as important, means the kids fend for themselves after school--to often that means they play video games or hang out with older kids until the parents get home.

It's just silly to blame every little thing on liberals. I wonder why wingnuts never seem to get bored with that.

7

In looking at the fonts, was Hal E. Burton's comment on #4 written on a typewriter, and how did he do that?  It's like Dan Rather, having a document prepared by a computer that is almost passable for being typed.

Hal, the article only led me to write about a problem in education.  The ideas in the post were not limited to that one article.  If you want more evidence of the failures of public schools, it shouldn't take thirty seconds, but everyone I know is already aware of them.

It's been a while, but I remember when Stanford was under great pressure by the liberals to drop Western Civ and replace it with World History, as if Western Civ was a white man's culture that is no better than the rest.  Suddenly schools everywhere were copying them and changing studies to empahsize other cultures at the expense of dropping important issues in our own.

Further, the California Textbook Committee (very liberal) is the largest purchaser of textbooks in the nation and calls the shots on what publishers offer to the rest of the nation.  If something is not multi-cultural enough, then that publisher is going to be hurt, so left-wing it is.  This extends beyond history books and even goes into math books--yes, it's true, even though that took some creativity.

Thankfully, my sone had a teacher who he said was a lot like me and whose father was a CPA, so he covered U.S. history from handouts that he had prepared over the years, which were more scholarly and complete--even though Bill Clinton's full page picture was left out.

8 You know, I'm going to miss William F. Buckley. Whatever the political stripe, the guy had a brain.

9

I grew up in a conservative household. Dad hated Kennedy and his view on Nixon was "he didn't do anything everyone else isn't doing.''

School was conservative too and everything from the Pledge of Allegiance to the history of Vietnam as a noble cause bred the assumption that America was always the good guy, without question, beyond question.

When I got to college, I started reading beyond the textbook. At that time, I was rigorously apolitical and focused pretty tightly on sports, girls and parties. But just in the course of spending more time studying, I happened to start reading books about poverty in America and so on.

I was shocked, and really dismayed, to learn that, in fact, America was not blameless in all matters geopolitical. We lied. We cheated. We killed because we could and for reasons that were far less holy than I had always assumed.

I was still naive, of course, having just begun on my journey toward a real education (and away from the fake one obtained in high school).

As a result, I became something of a left wingnut. America was the god that failed. We weren't perfect and, in fact, much of the history taught in high school was actually fraudulent. The Communists didn't start the war in Vietnam. The Soviet Union wasn't behind every civil war in the world. Communists were not lurking in every newspaper, library and Hollywood movie set, waiting to take over the government.

So, in my naive way, I assumed that if the right wing pablum delivered in high school was wrong, all the counter information must be right.

By the time I exited the university system, I had begun to have a broader view and understanding of the flow of history. I was still mostly a left wingnut, but I had just begun to start to understand that objecting to demonization of, for example, Nicaragua's government, didn't have to be the same as supporting Nicaragua's government.

Most university students follow a similar path: they get angry that the history they were taught in high school is risibly lop-sided in favor of America, and react by focusing on their newly acquired evidence that the establishment line is bullshit. Then, eventually, they learn to take a more nuanced view and to appreciate the complexity and focus on dilineating shades of gray, rather than black and white.

The point of all this is that lop-sided pro-American history lessons are the single biggest reason for left wingnuts. It sets up a straw man that a good number of people never let go of all their life. They stroll right into adulthood thinknig that because the U.S. is far less holy than advertised, it must be evil.

 

10 I'm impressed that as many kids know about McCarthyism as do. The Pearl  Harbor knowledge doesn't surprise me because of the Ben Afleck movie and many kids have relatives who were alive at that time.

I'm seriously disappointed that they did so poorly in identifying when the Civil War occurred.

I looked up the study report http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.27576,filter.all/pub_detail.asp 
there were some significant  differences between kids with college educated parents and those without which shows the importance of parents in education.

11 McLovin, I see flaws in what you were taught in your higher education, which is where the left-wing ideology started and worked its way down.  But, thanks for sharing why you went astray.

12

What ``flaws'' were those, Woody?

As I mentioned, my discovery that real American history wasn't as glorious and one-sided as presented in high school came from reading books on my own, not from any classes at all in university.

I do recall from college that my economics professor was more or less obsessed with proving that socialism was bad. When I transferred from junior college to university, I found the same thing: the economics professor made wild claims like: auto safety would improve if there were daggers mounted onto the steering wheel, so seat-belt laws are counterproductive, as they encourage risk taking.

But I freely chose to attend a private university that was openly committed to right-wing christian values. I had been an enthusiastic believer before enrolling there and much of what I saw--the hypocrisy and unexamined assumptions--turned me off of the religion completely.

I'd be interested to hear about your educational background, Woody, and how you ended up becoming a right-winger. Did you get it straight from your parents? Pick it up in college? Discover it in later life?

 

 

13

I should add:

At the right-wing university, I minored in political science and as part of that took a class on the history of socialism. The professor was a brilliant orator and made great sport of smacking down the many and vocal Reaganites in the class. He also told a good story.

He had traveled widely as a scholar, including to countries then known as the Eastern Bloc. He had become friends with a high-level government official/academic in Czechoslovakia and one day had been discussing with him the education of their children. The Czech said surely he would send his son to university in Paris, even though the expense would be great. The American professor was shocked. "Why would you send him to the Sorbonne, a citidel of capitalism, when you could send him for free to the University of Moscow, where he will study with the finest minds in all of the Soviet sphere.''

``I want to make sure he's a good communist,'' the Czech replied. ``If I send him to Moscow, he will surely rebel, like all students do, and come to despise the Soviets and communism. If he goes to Paris, he will just as surely rebel, but against capitalism and the Western bloc.''

 

 

 

14

McLovin: I minored in political science and as part of that took a class on the history of socialism. The professor was a brilliant orator and made great sport of smacking down the many and vocal Reaganites in the class.

Well, there's a big problem right there.  How can you respect a teacher and his views when he clearly used his position as a bully pulpit to humiliate students who were right but had not learned how the skill of debating and were afraid to go so far with him?

Mac, your views are far enough left to show that your education is either incomplete or that your experiences were abnormal.

It's okay to be proud of the U.S., which has maintainied freedom throughout the globe and is the most generous nation for countries in need.

To answer your other question, I have been realtively conservative my whole life.  My mom was active in the Republican party on the state level, when that wasn't popular, and I used to be one of the kids who would hang around the mall parking lot asking people if I could put Republican bumper stickers on their car.  One of my grandfathers hated Roosevelt and was active in negotiating coal mining cortract with John L. Lewis, who learned to hate Roosevelt himself.  I respected my grandfather and learned a lot from him.  My other grandparents died before I was born and my Dad was more concerned with making a living than elections, so they weren't much of an influence on me over political issues.  However, my dad was a WWII veteran, and I heard stories about the Japs and Germans and that Democrats always got us into wars and the Republicans would get us out.  I also never cared what people thought of me, so I said what I believed without worrying about being accepted in a group of liberals.  College had absolutely no effect on my politics.  I majored in accounting and that's what we studied--not how to hate America.  We in the School of Commerce used to laugh at the hippies.  So, you might say that I turned out almost perfect.

15

No one is prouder of America than I am, but I suspect I'm proud of exactly the same things you despise, Woody.

American universities are the envy of the world, drawing some of the very best students from every corner of the earth. That is largely because of our tradition of academic freedom and that same tradition leads to professors being willing to criticize the U.S. government and present history as they see it, not as the government would like to have it seen.

I'm proud of the fact that America has a long history of military restraint. Episodes like Iraq are actually an aberration, as was the Vietnam war, and a temporary lapse in judgment that doesn't reflect longstanding American ideals or values. There were always be people who like war and demand more of it, but, fortunately, in America they have historically lost out politically.

I'm proud of the fact that most Americans embrace multiculturalism, meaning they are willing to work to understand other cultures on their own terms, without letting value judgments impede their understanding. They can do this because they are confident enough in their own value system not to be threatened by an open-minded approach to learning new things and incorporating good ideas, while rejecting bad ones.

I'm proud of the abolitionists and the civil rights crusaders who ultimately defeated the conservatives (like William F. Buckley) who opposed equal rights for Afro-Americans and other non-caucasions. I'm proud of the Americans who were big-minded enough to see past the racist rhetoric of the Strom Thurmonds and George Wallaces of the day.

I'm proud that most Americans oppose torture and understand why it is inimical to a free society and why the state should never have such awful power over any individual in any circumstance. I'm proud that Americans oppose the kind of prison without trial the Bush administration is now carrying out in Guantanamo. These Americans, a majority, understand that jurisprudence isn't a "nicety'' granted to those priviledged with American citizenship, but a human right "endowed by the creator.''

And as for the professor "bullying" the students. No professor should be under any pressure whatsoever not to challenge students as rigorously as possible. And this he did. The truth is these students were utterly ill prepared to discuss the issues they were bringing up. They accepted the mainstream media's praise of Reagan at face value and, therefore, were totally taken by surprise when presented with counter facts. It was quite funny to observe this in action.

 

16

McLovin, your last sentence speaks volumes.  Liberals do enjoy hurting people who disagree with them.  The viciousness of the last eight years is an example.   

Also, don't assume that what you learned was all correct.   A lot of people believed The NY Times, but now only 24% of Americans have a favorable view of paper according to a recent poll.  Maybe your sources were biased and you didn't have a solid enough foundation to see it, and now you're trapped in that mindset.

17

Woody; where are you getting that people in the class I attended were "hurt."

There were being helped in one or both of two ways: One, they were enlightened to the fact that they weren't very well informed about the basis of their own political views. Two, they can't expect every professor to agree with their political biases.

As for the New York Times, if Americans view it so unfavorably, why in the world is the wingnutosphere so obsessed with it?

If Americans don't care what the liberal media says and don't trust it, why do conservatives keep blaming the liberal media for leading people astray?

18

No one likes to be humiliated in front of their peers, such as by the professors, and the political views of the students, especially if they were consistent with Reagan, may not have been wrong.  I've seen and heard about bullying by professors.  My own kids would listen and regurgitate what the professor wanted to hear rather than get into a fight with him that they couldn't win and that would hurt their grade.  (Yes, professors can be vindictive.)  If you can't see that, they you have no sensitivity or you're vindictive yourself.  Any don't be so sure that your professor was so brilliant.  You know the saying, "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."

The NY Times poll is a snapshot in time.  It's ratings can go up and down.  We're concerned about it and other left-wing media because a lot of people still read and put faith in the paper.  Why are you obsessed with FOX?

On  my assignment above on "why I'm a conservative," I left off that I grew up under very corrupt and incompetent Democatic elected officials, particularly on the city and state levels.  Democrats are populists, and they will take any position that gets them elected without any convictions.  Finally, the people caught on and threw the Democrats out, and the Republicans brought prosperity and respectability back to the area.

19

You sound confused Woody.

You say the NY Times is unpopular and outside the mainstream, yet ``a lot of people still read and put faith in the paper.''

Can't really have it both ways, can you?

If the NY Times is out of touch, it can't have a significant effect on the mainstream of America. If it has no significant effect on the mainstream, why all the concern?

Your theory just doesn't stack up. Either the NY Times is more popular, more mainstream and more influential than you can admit, or it matters a lot less than you'll admit.

20

My view is that the New York Times is the "paper of record" because that's exactly what its readers demand. If it didn't serve the readers' demand for fast, accurate, comprehensive news, it wouldn't survive as the leading U.S. newspaper.

The U.S. newspaper market is among the most free and competitive in the world. The American people are among the most free thinking, best educated in the world. Given those two facts, no newspaper could survive if it didn't represent the basic thinking of its readers and, indeed, advertisers.

What about New York's conservative newspapers? What about the New York Post?

Why aren't the Woodys of the world happy to read and support and refer to the Post?

The answer is simple: The Post doesn't compete with the New York Times for real news. It focuses on scandal and sensation and local oddities. It isn't a paper of record because it just doesn't invest time and money to cover stories that aren't sensational enough to grab readers. Yet it has a huge readership and after many years of subsidy by conservative billionaire Rupert Murdoch, it appears to be profitable. The bottom line is that conservative readers don't really want news. They want entertainment and commentary that reaffirms their ideology.

Note that every successful conservative media enterprise is focused on commentary, not straight news. Fox News Channel beats CNN, but not in news coverage. It's talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity that bring in the conservative audience and the ratings.

Why do conservatives prefer commentary to news?

This, more than anything, explains why conservatives feel the media is so biased, whereas liberals don't see that at all.

The news itself--the facts showing things going so badly in Iraq, manmade climate change, a looming recession, evolution, the decline of American prestige globally and so on, all point away from conservative ideology.

So a conservative reader or viewer of straight news is somewhat justified in feeling under seige. Their views are under constant attack by the facts on the ground.

My aunt is a lifelong conservative and Republican. She told me: I listen to both sides. I listen to NPR and Rush Limbaugh. So in her mind, Limbaugh is somehow a counterpart to NPR. But of course the two are completely different. Limbaugh reports no news whatsoever. His program is exclusively unopposed commentary on news that's been reported already on NPR, the New York Times, etc.

NPR is 90 percent straight news. To be sure, all news, including NPR, includes bias. But there is a wide difference between biased straight news and commentary. 

     Of course NPR comes off as more liberal than Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly. How could it be otherwise? Does anyone think straight news should fall into line with the nakedly partisan views of ideologues like Limbaugh or Hannity?

   That doesn't make NPR liberal, it makes NPR centrist.

    The Wall Street Journal offers another illustrative example. It's arguably the most influential newspaper in America and, indeed, the world. It's nationwide readership is over 1 million, roughly in the same category as the New York Times, but with far more influence because its readers are virtually by definition far above average financially.

    The WSJ editorial page is stridently conservative and unspairing in its criticism of liberals and Democrats. The new owner, Rupert Murdoch, has a long track record of steering his newspaper's coverage to favor conservatives. And there's nothing, per se, wrong with that. The WSJ editorial page caters to its readership. American conservatives have every right and reason to have a newspaper that represents their views and the WSJ is clearly that newspaper.

    Trouble is, the WSJ's straight news coverage is indistinguishable from that of the NY Times, Washington Post, or liberal media, as described by conservatives. How does that happen? Is there a conspiracy with the WSJ to keep conservatives out of the news section and in the commentary? Of course not, the simple fact is that news can't credibly be reported from the narrow ideological perspective offered by rightwing columnists and commentators. Readers wouldn't buy it and, the record shows, readers reject it when it's offered to them.

   So around and around it goes. Conservatives dominate newspaper and television commentary, thereby setting a narrow ideological frame for news, which then looks liberal, by comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

21

McLovin, there's no contradictions.  People may be upset with Microsoft but that doesn't stop them from using it.  The NY Times is the major paper of one of the world's major cities.  That alone gives it readership.  However, that doesn't mean that the people agree with the editorial decisions of the paper. 

But I really have to laugh when you write: <i>"Conservatives dominate newspaper and television commentary...."</i>

22

You still seem confused Woody.

You acknowledge that the NY Times is the major paper in the biggest city, but you don't acknowledge WHY it's the major paper.

Why isn't Murdoch's Post the major paper, or the New York Daily News?

The Microsoft comparison doesn't wash. If you want to use the vast majority of consumer application software, you have to use Microsoft. There's no choice.

If you want to read a paper other than the NY Times, there are several choices without effort or additional expense.

I do think I overstated that conservatives "dominate" newspaper and TV commentary. You'd need to add talkradio to get to "dominate." But it is safe to say that there are significantly more conservative commentators on TV and in newspapers and magazines than there are liberals.

A quick way to see this is to go to townhall.com and check their list of conservative pundits. Most of them have newspaper or magazine syndication deals and many of them either have spots or are regularly featured on TV chat shows.

If I were a conservative, I'd be asking why there's no successful conservative newspaper, instead of whining all the time that the most successful papers are liberal.

23 McLovin, you're impossible.  The media has been historically liberal with no other choices by conservatives.  Now that conservatives are getting choices, The NY Times and papers like it are suffering.  The Times has watched circulation plummet and has had to keep firing staff to stay going.  It's a trend that won't be reversed if they persist on their left-wing politics.  I don't even like their sports pages.

24

Also,

Two thirds of Americans - 67% - believe traditional journalism is out of touch with what Americans want from their news, a new We Media/Zogby Interactive poll shows.

The survey also found that while most Americans (70%) think journalism is important to the quality of life in their communities, two thirds (64%) are dissatisfied with the quality of journalism in their communities.

BTW, the original topic was "Education."

 

 

25

Woody, you're in denial about the New York Post and the New York Daily News and the Washington Times.

Those are all clearly right-of-center newspapers owned and operated by committed conservatives.

Why don't they have the national readership and prestige that the New York Times and Washington Post do?

Of course,  the New York Times has much greater respect and influence than the New York Post, but that's respect and influence it has won in a free market of ideas. Same goes for the Washington Post over the Washington Times.

Basically, Woody. You're a sore loser in the free market of ideas.

No one's stopping conservatives from making their own media. Indeed, the conservatives have their own media. Trouble is, it's second-rate and you know it.

So instead of whining about how liberal the media is, you should be asking yourself why conservative rivals are all second rate.

My view is that bias, be it conservative or liberal, is unimportant relative to accuracy and transparency. If the media are factually accurate and don't rely on anonymous sourcing, intelligent readers can see right through any biases, so the particular tilt of a piece of writing is inconsequential.

Moreover, it's virtually impossible to set objective standards for what is "biased" anyway. You say NY Times is left-wing, but that begs the question of to the left of what? The average American? But where is it written that a newspaper should craft its political views to match the theoretical "average" American.

I get a sense that Woody believes that because the NY Times is to his left, it is, therefore, left-wing.

Of course we know the NY Times supported the invasion of Iraq and published outrageously biased reports falsely reporting that Iraq had WMD. These were anonymous reports virtually dictated by Dick Cheney's office to Judith Miller, who wrote them in the usual way, as part a quid pro quo to maintain the access to Cheney that her position in the world of journalism required.

It's a free country. If conservatives fail in the news media, they have only themselves to blame.

26

Fine, Mac.  I'm not going to change your mind.  The NY Times is not liberal and the recent article on McCain was not a hatchet job.

27

My point, Woody, is that even if we could agree that the NY Times were liberal, that wouldn't give conservatives any right to complain.

And for the record, the McCain article was a hatchet job, just as were the many pre-war WMD articles. I've yet to see any liberal commentary that doesn't express disappointment with the NY Times as regards that McCain article. It's been widely condemned as a hatchet job in liberal circles.

I've yet to see any conservative commentator, not a single one, complain about Judith Miller's WMD propaganda spoon-fed straight from Dick Cheney's office into the NY Times. Not one complaint and that piece of propaganda led us straight into a disastrous war...

28

Mac:  "even if we could agree that the NY Times were liberal"

Then, it's not likely that we could agree on anything.

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There were being helped in one or both of two ways: One, they were enlightened to the fact that they weren't very well informed about the basis of their own political views. Two, they can't expect every professor to agree with their political biases.

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1 Good grief! It's an outrage!!! How do we win back control of our schools from the left? I'm Digging this article.

2 My sons were fed the urban legend of Chief Seattle's speech in their high school curriculum, even after I pointed out that it was a fraud and provided evidence.

It was particularly poignant, as both were born in Ceausescu's Romania, which erased much of the previous 100 years of history, finding it inconvenient.

3 Parents cannot always rely on public schools to do their job. Textbooks are tailored to please the largest customer, the liberal California textbook committee. Teachers, for the greater part, drop the ball further.

OR...

Teachers cannot always rely on parents to do their job. Textbooks are tailored to give bang for bucks. Teachers, for the most part, do the best they can with what they've got.


Woody...are you EVER planning on saying ANYTHING nice about teachers? Why not just take your son out of public school and home school him if it's that bad? You make these blanket statements about teachers being worthless and not giving a hoot. Unless you've been on a textbook committee, be quiet. You have no freaking idea what you are talking about. I've been on one, and it's hard. You have to look at the extras that each company is offering and decide which will be the most beneficial with the best results. It's not an easy decision.

Now...having said that, I personally agree that featuring only 3 paragraphs on WWII is terrible. But which bothers you more? That they only featured 3 paragraphs about WWII or that they put up a large picture of a president you despise and an author for whom I am sure you don't care? Which is it?

But I am sick to death of you always blaming the teachers. Everything that is wrong with the public school system is not always the teachers fault.

Are you on your son's PTA committee? What about the Campus Advisory Committee at your school? Do you volunteer at your son's campus? Do you tutor or offer to be mentor to someone? How are you involved? Have you ever even asked to be on a textbook committee for your district?

4 I'm sorry Jennifer but since you are a conservative you are not allowed to deviate from the script, even if you are a teacher. Please amend your comments to blame the Godless Communists for ruining our public schools in an effort to weaken and destroy America from within. It's what any true patriotic American would have to say about the subject. Unless you happen to be a phony like those guys Rush Limbaugh was talking about, perhaps?

5

Moose...um, no.  Not doing it. 

I agreed that the book did a disservice (putting it mildly) to WWII, but I'm tired of the Woody blaming the teachers for everything that's wrong.  And every time he does it by making blanket statements that malign ME as a teacher, I will gripe, moan and complain forthwith. 

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1 HI GM and Woody,

I was just thinking of posting about this. Glad y'all did. Good lord. Like UCI didn't know what it was getting when it hired Chermininsky???? Right, they were SHOCKED, SHOCKED...! Due diligence, people!

The truth is, Chermininsky's a great Consitutional scholar and a star. If Irvine'd had any sense the would have known he likely would have recruited stars from the right and the left to make for a brilliant law school that didn't have to go through the usual growing pains. (As th LA Times points out, frigging Ken Starr and John Eastman are the new deans at Pepperdine and Chapman law schools respectively. And does anyone give a fig about it? Of course not, because they're well-known scholars and stars. John Woo at UC Berkely, is another matter., since, in a addition to being a legal scholar, he's possibly....well...you know.....in league with Satan---which is a liability, theologically speaking.)

Anyway, good subject for a post. Once again, common sense is in short supply. Hope the UCI folks aren't reading my blog or I'm totally screwed. Fortunately my boss there is as whacked-out, knee-jerk liberal as I am. So maybe we're both screwed. Hard to tell.

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1 Arts & Humanities professors are a protected species. In Colorado, that's important.

2 He gives "Churchill" a bad name.

3 garbage out!

4 This is exactly why there is tenure. The reason for tenure is so that professors can express themselves however they wish. If this protection didn't exist genius would live in a miasma of fear, which isn't conducive to new and exciting tought.

I believe that the quote within the wikipedia is germain to this topic:

"To be clear: the issues here have nothing to do with the quality of Ward Churchill’s scholarship or his professional credentials. However one views his choice of words or specific arguments, he is being put in the dock solely for his radical critique of U.S. history and present-day policy in the wake of the events of September 11, 2001. Apparently, 9/11 is now the third rail of American intellectual life: to critically probe into its causes and to interrogate the international role of the United States is treated as heresy; those inquiring can be denied forums, careers, and even personal safety. . .The Churchill case is not an isolated incident but a concentrated example of a well-orchestrated campaign launched in the name of “academic freedom” and “balance” which in fact aims to purge the universities of more radical thinkers and oppositional thought generally, and to create a climate of intimidation.

– An Open Letter from Concerned Academics"

He may be wrong, but you might first want to read his essay. I thought he was a bit extremist, but I do agree with his quote of Malcolm X. I have always believed that the events of 9/11 had everthing to do with chickens coming home to roost. That thought is sour medicine , but true nonetheless.

5 psyber, would you defend tenure for a professor who taught that slavery was good? There are limits to academic endeavors.

6 I would defend him. 10 years ago here at UT there was a Law Professor who put his foot in it after affirmative action was shot down by the supreme court. He was saying that affirmitive action was the only way minorities would ever get a post secondary education. I didn't agree with him but yet he is still teaching at UT today. That year we had a number of round tables and discussions about race relations, which in my opinion did more good than his expressed myopic opinion.

A quote by James Billington is appropriate here, "Intellectual and cultural freedom is the most important single precondition for the breakdown of the kinds of tyrannical and totalitarian systems that periodically threaten us."

Wether the thoughts are right or wrong the truth will come out in the end.

7 I don't have to have a professor teaching that the holocaust didn't happen or that Nazism is good to know what is really right, with or without academic discussions. Let these wackos take their causes public with their own time and money and save the classrooms for teaching things actually useful.

8 A brief quote from the Minister of State for Multiculturalism in Canada:

"the government will not tolerate statements that create dissonance in our society and disrespect for others"

You would think that the position of minister for multi-culti and the quote itself were a gag. They are not. The woman who said this, and the quote itself are real. In her previous incarnation, she was of course a school principal. That not being enough damage done, she was groomed for political office, by the natural ruling party of canada, the Liberals.

9 I find that this topic pulls me in two directions. "A" being of a mind that this guy is allowed to say things that are assinine and awful and I'm allowed to say that he is assinine and awful. And his employer is allowed to fire him.

The "B" is a bit more complicated and I don't know that I can make y'all understand my ideas. First, I can't believe that this is the FIRST time that this professor has made a 'controversial' statement. Professors of this type usually have a record of this.
So, the university offered him tenure anyway. And now they are reaping the harvest. You can't fault a snake for acting like a snake.

Woody, you made a comment to the effect of teaching things that are really useful. Is it not useful to be given a nugget of opinion and to utilize my own mind to decide whether said nugget is valid or worthless?

I had a professor that spouted tripe much like this at university. I had two choices:
a) keep taking the class
b) drop the class

I chose to drop the class because I had heard his kind of drivel before and I didn't choose to waste my time hearing it again.

I just kind of think it's a bit worrisome that people have to worry about being fired because of unpopular speech/thoughts.

Woody, don't you automatically lose the argument because you brought up Nazis? Whose law it that? Ask GM, he knows whose law it is. :-)

10 Jen, to answer your last question first, I did not call or compare the commenter to a Nazi. I just chose to find a cause so outrageous that it would be hard for anyone to defend a professor spouting that nonsense. Do we need to discuss slavery all over again or the right of women to vote to know that those subjects are settled and that it is nuts for a professor to bring up such worthless topics? I still defend my statement that there are limits to what a professor may do and that to go into such nonsense is a waste at the expense of actually useful topics.

On the choice issue, students pick professors because some are easy graders, because they agree at their impressionable age with some nonsense being spewed, or because the other class they wanted was closed. Wouldn't it be better, however, if they had the best life and career choices available rather than classes from kooks?

On the tenure, the university offered it to him and was constrained by that when he crossed the line of sanity. If tenure didn't exist at all, as I propose, then this would not have been a problem.

Come to think of it, when was the last time that a professor challenged our intellectual pursuits by proposing that we drop tenure? Wouldn't that be more useful than some other topics that they pick? No, they don't want to give up the free ride.

BTW, professors tend to mind their manners and toe the line while waiting for tenure. After they get it, many go into semi-retirement. Some get crazy. Hopefully, some still do their jobs as intended by their customers, which are the students and/or the parents who pay the tuition.

P.S. See G.M.'s post above, which continues this topic. He mentions that Churchill called the 9-11 victims of Al Qaeda "Little Eichmann's." So, my mention of the craziness of discussing Nazis in the classroom isn't so far off base.

11 I still defend my statement that there are limits to what a professor may do and that to go into such nonsense is a waste at the expense of actually useful topics.

Sure there are limits, and I don't have a hard and fast opinion on whether tenure is worthwhile or not.

But opinions are like... and what you think is worthless topic could be quite vital to someone else. Gee, look at how much fun it has given us here.

And BTW, I did NOT say that you called someone a Nazi, I just mentioned that you brought them up. And if GM brought them up, then he loses the argument too. I was making a small, and probably poor quality joke based on:
Godwin's Law
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's Law does not question whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[3] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

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The rural school system where my two youngest attend is at a disadvantage to schools in middle and upper class suburbs of large cities where most parents are college educated. Quite simple really.

The other aspect of NCLB is the mainstreaming of students. My 5th grade daughter has a 4.0 GPA this year and is in Gifted and Talented classes 2-3 hours a day. The remaining classes she is with regular classes which consist of kids from the the top performers to borderline mentally retarded. These classes hinder the performance of the brighter kids.

My daughter occasionally complains about the slow pace of these classes but, sadly, had become accustomed to it. We may not be leaving the lower performing kids behind but the higher performing kids are being left out.

2 Stupid analogy. If the dentist spent every day and seven hours a day with his patients, then he would have been expected to teach them something about dental care and would have helped them prevent tooth disease. It sounds as if the teachers are looking for any excuse to not have their performances measured. If they don't like the current form of measurement, then they can propose a realistic alternative--but, still accept responsibility and accountability for results.

3 Woody, the teachers who like the accountability idea the most dislike NCLB the most. I agree on accountability, but this is classic bureaucratic rather than real accountability, finding something to measure that looks sorta related, maybe.

4 Woody...teachers aren't saying that there should be no accountability. I've NEVER heard ANY teacher say that.

What we are saying is that NCLB is not an appropriate measurement. In theory, NCLB is a wonderful idea. In actual practice, it is not working.

You show me ONE politician that would listen to, and TAKE the advice of actual 'in the trenches' teachers as to what WOULD be an appropriate and reasonable assessment and I would donate some of my hard-earned teacher pittance to his/her campaign right now!


And any dentist could spend 5 hours a day, 5 days a week (which is what I actually HAVE with my students) and then send that child home to shovel sugar by the spoonful into his mouth for 3-4 hours and not brush his teeth before he goes to bed. You're right, no damage will be done. How silly of me to think that.

5 Woody, you're comment alone makes me want to break open my bag of ad hominem on you, but I will refrain. Needless to say NCLB is a joke. NCLB is a system of revenge designed by people who believe that their children are victims of a terrible educational system. It was step one in disassembling our public education system.

The parents of most of our "failing children" cannot nor will accept responsiblity for their child's education. They believe that their children are being victimized by our public education. NCLB is the result of our "not my fault" society that we are currently living in.

The backwardness of NCLB is that the onus of the passing grade is on the teacher and not the student? This makes me ask, "WHAT THE (insert your favorite colorful metaphor here)!?"

Yes there should be some accountability, but the onus of that responsiblity should lie with the student and some with the parents. Remember when we would get held back when we would not pass our classes. We were required to perform. We had to learn and there were consequences for us not performing.

Now if a teacher consistently has the majority of their class failing then they should be called to account. But requiring the teacher/ school to be responsible for a students performance is like firing a football coach because his player fumbled the ball.

6 Jennifer, it's still a bad analogy and the weekend example that you gave is worse. Students don't go home over the weekend and forget everything that you taught them. But, you're saying that kids going home from the dentist over the weekend can lose what they had on Friday. It's just a bad comparison.

I disagree about teachers wanting accountability. The teacher's unions fight all such programs, and I haven't heard an alternative even offered. So, what we have is exactly what you would expect from a government bureaucracy and no different from public schools--poor results.

Now, what accountability program do you think should exist for teachers? How do you feel about paying teachers within the same systems different amounts based on "production?"

7 psyberwolfe, I just caught your comment. How do you feel about vouchers where parents and their kids can select the schools that they believe produce the best results? Put competition and financial incentives into the system.

8 I disagree that it is a bad analogy. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's fairly decent in my mind. Also, it wasn't a 'weekend' analogy of mine, it's a nightly one. Nor did I imply that everything would be undone. I did say that SOME damage would happen.

I assign approximately 20 minutes of homework a night. Usually some combination of math/reading/spelling. The homework is designed to cement what we have done during the day or to review something we've done in the past. Do you know how often my students actually DO their homework? I'm not talking all or even a majority of my students. I'm talking about the ones that NCLB was meant to serve. They don't do their homework, they AREN't taught by their parents that education and school are valuable to them and I'm expected to compete with WWF and PS3 once they get home?

I didn't say that EVERYTHING would be undone, but when the parents do not emphasize the need to complete the homework I assign, what kind of message do you think that sends the children? It tells them that I can be ignored to some degree.

What REALLY torques my hide about NCLB is NOT that it exists, but that it lays FULL responsibility on me. Not an appropriate amount of responsibility, but FULL responsibility.

My students that struggle the most are the ones that come to school sleepy because they stayed up to watch "Jeepers Creepers" with their moms last night. They didn't get their homework done because they forgot because they played PS3 all night. Why aren't parents being held accountable for that? I have a student that is currently reading 11 words per minute. The goal for 2nd graders is 90 words per minute by the end of 2nd grade. But guess what he's getting for his birthday...not a Leap Pad or some other educational toy but an XBOX! I've given up my free time to tutor him in the afternoons, and I'm not paid for that, mind you. I've bought him books about things that interest him because his parents won't/can't. But it will be ALL MY FAULT when he fails his reading test?

WHY AM I BEING THE SCAPEGOAT BECAUSE THESE PARENTS ARE NOT TAKING AN APPROPRIATE SHARE OF THE LOAD IN THEIR CHILD'S EDUCATION???

Until you get into the classroom, you have no idea.

Quite often I agree with you Woody on other subjects, but you are wrong on this one. I don't give a flying pancake about the teacher's unions. I'm not a member of one. And if politicians bend over backwards to them, then shame on the politicians.

Paying teachers for results will not give the results you want. Also, how would that work for teachers that aren't in a standardized testing level? What about the art, music and PE teachers? How can you pay them on an incentive basis?

I don't know what the answer is Woody. I've been too busy DOING my job to figure out what other teachers should be doing. But I do know that NCLB isn't the answer.

9 Get him honey!!! Woody on this you are wrong. The fix requires our nation spending our defense budget on education. It requires us to pay teachers more than we pay professional athletes. You want quality education then we need to pay for it.

10 Jennifer, you have good teachers and you have bad teachers. The bad teachers are getting a free pass and need to be identified to change or get rid of them, and the good teachers need pay commensurate with their teaching results. Someone else came up with a way to measure that. If it's wrong, then someone else can come up with another way.

psyberwolfe, please tell me that you're an 18 year-old idealist and not an adult.

Spend our defense budget on education?! Two things would happen...(1) notihing for the schools, as more money won't help, as the problem isn't money, and (2) we wouldn't have to make decisions about the schools because some foreign conqueror would be telling us what to teach--and, it sure wouldn't be Western Civ.

Pay teachers what professional athletes make?! Our system is based on supply and demand--not some ambiguous, government dictated "value." That's a dangerous concept. However, if a teacher can throw a 95 mph fastball and consistently paiint the corners of the plate, then that would be a rare teacher who could make more based on market value.

11 Woody, bad teachers do need to be weeded out, I am with you on that 100%. However, with NCLB, teachers may be classified as 'bad' when in reality, they had a group of students that were low performers. Instead of judging teachers on one years performance, why not track the kids from one year to the next? If they made reasonable gains from the previous year, then that teacher did do a good job. If, at the beginning of 4th grade we have a low performing student who is reading on a 2nd grade level and by the end of the year is reading on a 3rd grade level, then progress has been made. That student has gained a whole year in reading skills, but that teacher will be rated as 'poor' because the student is not reading on 4th grade level. See what I mean?

Pay for performance is NOT the answer because it will never be equitable and some teachers will make the poor choice to cheat or do other things that will inflate their scores.

We get evaluated every year, it makes me wonder why the poor teachers are being offered a contract for the next year? And evaluations have been around since before NCLB.

12 Woody, I love ya, but NCLB is not the battleground you want to be fighting on.

13 Nice post — this really hits home for me.Thanks for sharing this digitizing, Keep posting stuff like this i really like it, ,Thanks for sharing I’ll email my friends about this too.Thanks for an idea, you sparked at thought from a concept I hadn’t considerd yet. Now lets see if I can do something productive with it.I look forward to more updates and will be returning.embroidery digitizing Cheers!I would be extremely interested to hear more information on this. Cheers!Great job, I love it! Thanks.Now lets see if I can do something productive with it. In any case I’ll be subscribing to your feed and I hope you write again soon!Great discussion.  digitization And I REALLY like that you practice what you preach. That’s when you can tell a post has come together.And I’m also fascinated by how fresh you made the routine [admit it: what you just shared has been regurgitated millions of time.

1 Let me defend the teacher for a moment, if you will. Woody has it ever occured to you that we could actually benifit be honestly confronting our demons. By not telling lies which make us feel better, by throwing away the rose coloured glasses. Instead, we can try to grapple with our history in all its complexites, including the barbarity which was often committed in the name of maintaining and controlling peoples bodies and lives. Gore Vidal has called us the United States of Amnesia. We live in a culture of forgetfulness. Why should we fear grappling with the documented genocide of Native Americans or the mass enslavement of African people in the New World. Surely stories of barbarity and horror have an ability to intruct, to teach us lessons. Isnt that the point of Holocaust remembrance. To ensure that as humanity we dont forget those who were slaughtered, who were treated as disposible. In Washington, DC there's a monument for the ictims of the Holocaust but no such monument for the slaves who perished on our soul. This isnt about hating America. Its about maturation and growing up. I now cede the floor to Howard Zinn

Probably the most important thing anybody can learn when they’re just beginning to think about history, is that history is very subjective and always opinionated. It’s never objective, it’s never neutral. Because when you think about it, all the history that’s presented to you is a selection made by the historian out of an enormous amount of data. The historian decides for you what is important and puts that down in the history books. And what the historian thinks is important, may not be important to you. When I read the history books, even in graduate school, and listened to my teachers I found that so much that I thought was important was missing from these books and missing from these lectures.
And so I felt that the American people, particularly the young generation going to school, was getting a very inadequate education about the American past.

"First of all, the treatment of our history with the Indians (the indigenous population) is a very weak and indequate treatment. I remember going to school and I would learn about Indians who came to Thanksgiving dinner gratefully. I would learn about Custer’s Last Stand, I would learn about Sitting Bull. There were a few moments in Indian history that we’d learn about. What we didn’t learn about was the fact that the American colonists that came here from the beginning were invading Indian soil and driving the Indians out of their land and committing massacres in order to persuade the Indians that they’d better move. And the history of the U.S. is a history of hundreds of little wars fought against the Indians, annihilating them, pushing them farther and farther onto a smaller and smaller piece of the country. And finally, in the late 19th century, taking the Indians that were left and squeezing them onto a reservation and controlling them.

This is a history that is not told in most American textbooks. The story that’s not told is the deceptions that were played on the Indians, the treaties that were made with them, the treaties that were then broken by the American government. It’s important to know that, because if you do, then you will become aware that the American government can lie. It can deceive people. It can do it not only in relation to Native Americans, it can do it in relation to all of us."

2 You've got to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em

Ahmed, your extensive apologia ironically doesn't help the defense of the teacher's actions; rather it actually strenghtens the assertion that the teacher's skit was an insult to serious examination of the history of European and native peoples in America.

Sometime you just have to forget about defending the indefensible and move on.

Besides, we're talking about a holiday celebration, where here commemorates the first feast between the Pilgrim settlers and the Indians. If you read the linked article, it contained a salient quote from historian James Loewen:

"Relations were strained, but yet the holiday worked. Folks got along. After that, bad things happened," Loewen said, referring to the bloody warfare that broke out later during the 17th century.

It really is unfair to hang the weight of subsequent history on these first Pilgrims.

Worse, you could go through the rest of our major holidays (President's Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Christmas) and use the same kind of approach you've taken here to turn them into negative reflections on our society. But what would you have left - a people and a nation without joy.

Sorry, you'll just have to take your wet blanket and go elsewhere on our holidays. There's plenty of other days in the year for you to disdain.

Regarding Howard Zinn, anyone who starts off by saying this:

Probably the most important thing anybody can learn...is that history is very subjective and always opinionated. It’s never objective, it’s never neutral.

has already cut-off the intellectual limb they're standing on. There's no common ground left on which to conduct discussion.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving...

3 If you think I'm trying to "show disdain" or take a "positive" and turn it into a "negetive" than you really ought to reread what I wrote. I hate to once again historicise the debate but let me take a passage from Columbus as he reacted to the generosity of the Arawaks upon encountering them

"They brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned. They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of sugar cane. They would make fine servants. With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

And so the conquest began. You probably already know a good piece of the story: How Columbus's Army took Arawak and Taino people prisoners and insisted that they take him to the source of their gold, which they used in tiny ornaments in their ears. And how, with utter contempt and cruelty, Columbus took many more Indians prisoners and put them aboard the Nina and the Pinta -- the Santa Maria having run aground on the island of Hispañola (today, the Dominican Republic and Haiti). When some refused to be taken prisoner, they were run through with swords and bled to death. Then the Nina and the Pinta set sail for the Azores and Spain. During the long voyage, many of the Indian prisoners died. What were the colonist when they returned. Gold, rersources and slaves. What Columbus did to the Arawaks of the Bahamas and the Taino of the Caribbean, Cortez did to the Aztecs of Mexico, Pizarro to the Incas of Peru, and the English settlers of Virginia and Massachusetts to the Powhatans and the Pequots. Literally millions of native peoples were slaughtered. All of this, it must be loudly stated, were the preconditions for the first Thanksgiving. In the North American English colonies, the pattern was set early, as Columbus had set it in the islands of the Bahamas. In 1585, before there was any permanent English settlement in Virginia, Richard Grenville landed there with seven ships. The Indians he met were hospitable, but when one of them stole a small silver cup, Grenville sacked and burned the whole Indian village. Its true that the Puritans lived in uneasy truce with the Pequot Indians, who occupied what is now southern Connecticut and Rhode Island. But they wanted them out of the way; they wanted their land. And they seemed to want to establish their rule firmly over Connecticut settlers in that area. As it turns In 1636 an armed expedition left Boston to attack the Narragansett Indians on Block Island.

Listen I love turkey, stuffing and the rest of it as much as anyone else. But, i think what the teacher is trying to say is that we should use the space of Thanksgiving to broaden our discussion. Lets start looking at history from multiple perspectives. What does it mean to examine slavery through the diares of slaves who wrote about the systems daily brutality instead say a wealthy plantation owner. One of the few times of the year when young childrenb learn about native Americans they are presented with a ahistorical narrtive about mutual kindness, which serves to blind us from awful crimes, commmited in the name of progress and civilisation. Can we not try to steer the conversation in another direction? There are native american groups all thoughout the country who have waged fierce political battles over "Columbus Day" demanding that they be counted as real human beings. That the very foundation of our nation was in fact built on the degredation and genocide of another people. When will we stop puffing our chests and learn to deal with our past in all in complexities. How on earth can we hope to make a better and more just future if we as a society refuse to look deep inside ourselves and confront our flaws.

4 I taught 3rd grade for some 10 years. This lesson, if it has merit (debatable), is way over the heads of such young students. In fact, the lesson is planting the seeds of anti-Americanism.

5 I agree with Watch... That's way too young of an age for such a controversial subject. Of course I'm sure Woody would object if the same lesson were taught in high school or college or anywhere else at any time.

Personally, I believe that serious mistakes were made in how this country was colonized, founded and developed and we in modern times are still paying for those mistakes today. That doesn't mean America isn't the greatest country in the world, it just means we are far from perfect and would do well to openly recognize that occasionally.

6 Moose, I would object to this lesson on Thanksgiving being taught at any level because it is a complete misrepresentation of that particular event.

P.S. Maybe we should have one "holiday" for the left in which they can criticize American values and attack our founders rather than have them do that on many other holidays that others want to celebrate joyfully. Columbus Day is in the lead for that honor, so rename it to "What's Wrong with America Day."

7 "Mommy, Mommy," Said little 3rd grade Johnny. "Where do I come from?"

"Well, darling, your daddy and I are in love with each other and one night, he placed his..... "(I won't go into the long drawn out description of the consensual sex that Mommy and Daddy had - this is a family blog)(very big grin inserted here).

"But Mommy," said little 3rd grade Johnny, "Mary came from Chicago and Billy came from Memphis, so where did I come from?"

AOW and Moose are correct, there is a time and a place to teach everything. The celebation of Thanksgiving is just that, a period of peace between two disparate cultures (that sadly didn't last) and that is the message of Thanksgiving that should be taught to that age group. The teacher was out of bounds and failure to recognize that in yielding to the need to be politically (not historically) correct is part of the "White man speak with fork-ed tongue" attempt to radicalize a new generation.

Was the teacher correct? No, not about the first Thanksgiving. Was he correct about the subsequent relations between the Europeans and the indigenious natives of this continent? Yes, and so what? The mish-mash that today we call civilization is frought with examples of one peoples beating up on another from the time the first relatives of "Lucy" beat up on the hominids to the savaging of the Bedoins by Mohammad to the bloody conquest of Peru by Pizarro; but to a third grader, that stuff is meaningless because he/she does not have the educational foundation to understand the full context That is one of the reasons the third grade is called Elementary School.

8 The European settlers did nothing worse to the Indians than the Indians did to the European settlers--and, to other tribes. There's a reason that failure to protect colonists from "savage Indians" is a complaint against King George in the Declaration of Independence. The only reason that the white man is demonized in the Indian conflicts is because he ultimately prevailed.

An honest look would also consider and explain the travesties conducted by the Indians, which were carried out against early and mostly defenseless settlers. From what I have studied, which includes going to historical sites, generally massacres were not over land, which is the point of the lesson, but were over possessions of others that the Indians wanted. It was looting and murder approved by tribal leaders. Teachers should give some credit to the Indians themselves for their loss.

Still, even that has nothing to do with Thanksgiving, but it does have to do with a more complete and accurate historical view of that era.

9 Ahmed, there is a time and place for almost everything. The third grade is not the time and place for what this teacher did. If you don't understand this then all the logical arguments in the world won't help you to understand and I feel sad for any kids you may have.

Show me a culture that has never conquered another culture and I'll show you one that:

1) is very new
2) or, no longer exists
3) or, lives in the Stone Age

10 Well stated all, and more succinctly than my effort.

DADvocate, the tales I've read about Stone Age Tribes indicate that many are very violent towards outside groups, so I think you're down to alternative 1) or 2).

11 If anything, Woody's ill informed rant proves that the kind of thing the teacher was trying to do is absolutely necessary. Fighting between settlers and Natives had nothing to do with land.?Is he saying this with a straight face? Of course there were Indian atrocities against settlers. But there was a vast power difference between both groups. He also forgets the small fact that it was the natives who were being continuously driven off their land, and the settlers who were colonising it. Along with settler colonialism came the dominant idea that natives were backwards, barbarians and it was the settlers who were bringing forth civilisation and rationality. If this is the thinking then what does it matter if the rights of Indians are protected. I wrote a pretty lengthy post and i welcome woody or anyine else for that matter to challenge the history i lay out. I want to repeat again that discussing these issues isnt about blaming people or dissing america but about broadening our humanity and grappling with the pain of others. Its about abadoning Woody like childhood and growing up. Anywas I look forward to future posts from Woody complaining that that Holocaust memorials dont take into account what the jews did to the germans or that talkng about slavery, honestly in this country, is tantamount to hating america Woodster, youve got a long way to go, buddy

12 Ahmed, it wasn't a rant and it wasn't ill informed. It's just not politically correct, but so what? And, what I said doesn't prove that this teacher needs to be indoctrinating third graders with his leftist dribble over Thanksgiving either and as you support. Perhaps schools didn't do an adequate job of teaching American history to you in South Africa. You are grossly ignorant of Indian history in colonial America.

It's also a real stretch and insult to say that I would defend the Holocaust because I recongize the savagery of the Indians against our early settlers--who were not a threat at that time.

The reference to land was that Indians did not attack early settlers to protect their land boundaries. Land was plentiful and wasn't the issue. Do you have some reference that the Pilgrims, out-manned and underfed, were somehow plotting to drive the Indians out of Massachusetts? Didn't think so.

So why did the Indians attack? Indians attacked settlers to steal their possessions, tools, weapons, and sometimes their children--and, some were just murderers. I had relatives in South Dakota from the 1800's who had their share and stories of Indian scares. Here are some written first-hand accounts of Indian savagery from what I think is your current location. Warning. The accounts are very gruesome and are not isolated instances.

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&id=14385&hdl=&np=&adv=yes&ln=&fn=&q=&y1=&y2=&ci=&co=&mhd=Indians+and+Native+Peoples&shd=Massacres

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=10109&pn=1&adv=yes&hdl=&np=&ln=&fn=&q=&y1=&y2=&ci=&co=&mhd=Indians+and+Native+Peoples&shd=Massacres

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=610&pn=1&adv=yes&hdl=&np=&ln=&fn=&q=&y1=&y2=&ci=&co=&mhd=Indians+and+Native+Peoples&shd=Massacres

Just because the Indians lost doesn't make them the good guys.

To take this a little further, consider this interesting parallel of our Indian wars and our current war on terror.

The essential paradigm of the War of Terror -- us (the attacked) against them (the attackers) -- was no less essential to the mindset of white settlers regarding the Indians, starting at least from the 1622 Indian massacre of 347 people at Jamestown, Virginia. With rare exceptions, newly arrived Europeans and their descendants, as well as their leaders, saw Indians as mortal enemies who started the initial fight against them, savages with whom they could not co-exist. The Declaration of Independence condemned "the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."

Of course, when we finally defeat all of the terrorists, are you going to claim that the U.S. was wrong and become an apologist for the terrorists? Oh, wait. You already do that.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

13 Ahmed, we are familiar with the arguments you are making. We have heard them many times. Saying them with great intensity and sincerity does not make them more convincing.

First: The dramatization is way over the heads of 3rd graders.

Second: It is an oversimplification worse than the original.

Third: The general proposition that it is good to teach children the truth, warts and all, is not license to teach any negative thing you wish under that banner.

Fourth: While all history has subjectivity and point-of-view, it is not infinitely flexible, to admit any opinion whatsoever. Reality has an enormous resilience.

Fifth, and at greater length: Look at the population figures, start to finish, from the first whispers of the New World reaching Europe and the present day, and trace the dates of the settlement patterns. Salient points: The eastern Indians wiped out two-thirds of their own population just before the English settlers arrived. 90% of the Indians who died in the first 30 years after settlement died of diseases brought by the settlers. While this may be the "fault" of the settlers in some real sense, it is of a different order of culpability. Half of the rest of the Indians were killed by others of their own tribes for adopting the white man's ways. The settlement of Englishmen onto the east coast for the first hundred years was less than 100,000 people - not until around 1750 did any start to move in more than 50 miles from the coast. Lastly, despite lots of friction and a few small wars, the New England colonists had remarkably good relations with the native tribes.

Yes, there were many terrible things that the settlers and those came after did to the Indians. I may have ancestors who did their share. But do not let the attractive narrative of highlighting American perfidy erase the actual history. You have been sold a worse lie.

14 I realise that arguing against Woody is like talking to a brick wall, as many like Balter and others have discovered, but let me quickly raise a few points

"Perhaps schools didn't do an adequate job of teaching American history to you in South Africa. You are grossly ignorant of Indian history in colonial America."

Ad hominem attack anyone. Sorry Woodster but i have a degree in American history from an American university. Try again

"It's also a real stretch and insult to say that I would defend the Holocaust"

It was an extreme example but i was just using your logic. You say that we shouldnt inculcate our students with "negative" views about American history. I disagree, strongly and ive outlined why. Quick question, pal. Should slavery be taught to students, Jim crow or should we just gloss over that. And whats the point of history. Is it to produce people who uncritically accept dominant narratives of the powerful ,as you seem to think, or is there a much broader use which im suggesting? Let me know

"I had relatives in South Dakota from the 1800's who had their share and stories of Indian scares"

Thansks. Could you also forward me first hand accounts by slave owners about how happy their human property were. Id love to hear them. As for massacres there were certainly occuring in both directions but to suggest, as you do, that the native population, who were decimated asnd suffered heavy massacres, especially in the age of jackson, didnt bear the bulk of the violence is stagerring. Id also mentioned earlier, in a post which was ignored, that racist views towards Indians were in place before the pilgrams an d while relationships were at times very codependent that codepenc turned into a policy of routine decimation and genocide. The fact that ir hurts your feelings doesnt make it any less true. Lastly Wooster, since youre such a American history buff, you must know something about "manifest destiny" as an ideology. Can you please tell me what you think it means?

15 Ahmed, if I had your knowledge of American history, I wouldn't go around bragging that I had a degree in it and, as a courtesy, wouldn't name the university that issued you that degree.

Now, my saying that you are ignorant of American history is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack is more like saying that you're stupid or a biggot or a liar, like Balter and your buddies say to me when they'e cornered. (Balter lied again about the carbon dating discussion that we had, and then called me a liar when I merely proved him wrong with his own words. Go figure.) My remark to you simply gives you a perspective of someone who knows history beyond what is taught in textbooks and someone who grew up in a home with a parent who had multiple history degrees and taught in a university--before they became P.C. My remark provided you with an explanation that your lack of knowledge on the subject has less to do with you, i.e., a personal attack, and more to do with the educational institutions that trained you, i.e., an attack on today's education system.

If Ward Churchill had been a professor of yours, you would hardly be to blame for being totally ignorant of the history of Indian attrocities, except you would have some blame for staying in his class. Likewise if you attended a class taught by Univeristy of Wisconsin instructor Kevin Barrett, who said that President Bush is a murderer, equated him with Adolph Hitler, and said that the U.S. government was behind the 9-11 attacks, then I could understand your confusion on Islamic terrorism but I would question why you would attend that university that permits intentional distortions of history to be taught to impressionable students by taxpayer-paid instructors.

The rest of your reply is so far off of the topic of Thanksgiving that a discusion of those points only carries us away from the subject of the post and into a subject that only you want to discuss and for which you likely have similarly distorted views and misconceptions of my views.

Slavery and the manifest destiny were certainly not objectives or on the minds of the Pilgrims--so, let your professors know that.

16 That american university didn't take off points for grammar and punctuation, I guess. I usually cut everyone slack on that, as I don't know their first language, formal education, and how much of a hurry they were in. But if you're going to set up the pins like that, I'll knock them down.

17 Ah Woodster youre always good for a laugh. I noticed that you respeonding to none of my points and instead engaged in some good old university bashing topped, hyperbole and right wing fear mongering. Just to send you on another frenzied attack ill let you know that the degree's from--gasp!-UCLA. Yikes consult David Horowitz, pronto!!! Other than that have a a good b day and happy birthday

ps I recommend people go to Marc Cooper's site. Our own Woody have left a flippant post, so bereft of compassion and dignity that's its quite stagerring.

18 Speaking of not responding to other's points, Ahmed...

19 Thanks for the happy b-day wish, Ahmed. I'll try to enjoy the presents, turkey, and family despite world suffering.

20 crickets chirping...

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1 Since when does criticism of Foreign and domestic policies become leftist? I say leftist because that seems to be the whipping boy of all your comments/posts.
As to the liberal leanings (real or percived) of College and University professors, do you think that they may be looking at politics from an educated point of view?

2 James, first, it is considered more common of the left to attack U.S. policies on anything whenever a Republican is the sitting President. That's a given and has nothing to do with right or wrong. The left looks at which sides are lined up (Bush against whomever) and makes its choices based on that--not the issues. Only after having announced their choice do they try to support it with issues--no matter how wrong or illogical the application of those issues. It's an automatic reflex.

Second, it's a common arrogant viewpoint of academic elites to consider that their extended educations somehow make their opinions superior on anything--no matter that their real world, practical experience is so lacking and that they buried themselves in a fantasy world of campus liberals. My roommate in college received his PhD in mathematics, but I wouldn't trust him to tie his shoes properly. I've heard more wisdom from a taxi cab driver than most professor activists.

3 James, you consistently put forward the standard explanation from the moderate left as if it were some new argument that no one here has dealt with before.

When the foreign and domestic policy of a government leans rightward, as this one does, then consistent criticism of it implies a leftward slant. Criticism per se is not indicative of a leftward slant. It is also at least theoretically possible that some of these professors are criticizing foreign and domestic policy from a further right perspective. There certainly are such criticisms within the general public. But when we add in the information that America is generally blamed by the survey group, then it becomes unlikely that the criticism is coming from the right. Concluding that academics in 2006 lean left from such data is not much a stretch.

As to the "more educated" POV. That is certainly the view they take of themselves, and many people would agree with their assessment. I believe in education, and still grant to people who have spent many years studying a subject the presumption that they might know something. You would think that such people would know more, wouldn't you? One would expect that in making observations about social and political issues that they have not only a grasp of the basics of the major points of view but are able to appreciate subtleties and angles that might not have occurred to the rest of us. It really should be that way.

But "should" is not "is." When you give them the stage and allow them to make their arguments, they make the same banal, easy-to-shatter arguments common to the lefty bloggers, prominent talking heads, and elected Democrats. I am not referring only to the Ward Churchills and other high-profile fringe examples of what academics believe, but the professors speaking at the conferences I attend spout about. I am referring to the preponderance of articles written by academics which appear in ALA publications, MLA conference summaries, psychology and social work journals, magazines for educators, commentaries in history and international studies, or humanities and anthropology textbooks.

One of the main things which moved me from socialism to a general conservative/libertarian slant was the reading of the theological writings coming out of the seminaries of the mainstream denominations. I picked up those books initially expecting to agree with the writers, who were going to present the deeper biblical and historical exegesis proving those simplistic conservatives wrong. But when I actually read those books, they were just recycled 60's Socialism Lite. They turned out to be the same meatheads I had played guitar with at church basement coffee houses. Their arguments were the same, just with better vocabulary and footnotes.

There are notable exceptions of academics from the left with whom I disagree with but at least make coherent arguments. They are not common. Most of what you will read if you poke around are the same tired arguments endlessly repeated, along with (alternating) whining that no one's listening and condescending sneers.

Don't be fooled. Not only are academics not above the same prejudices common to the rest of mankind, but they are exquisitely well-defended against learning anything from those they feel are their inferiors.

4 hiya GM!..overwhelmingly liberal is a masterpiece of understatement.!.great post.

5 Woody,

This subject is of special interest to me because we have a son in college at UT-Austin with a double major in honors liberal arts and business. We knew that sending our son into a liberal arts program at UT-Austin would expose him to liberal views. Frankly, however, I think that's a good thing. I'll admit I won't pay for him to take a course under Robert Jensen but I would hate to spend my life in an echo chamber of ideas and I don't want that for our son. Having said that, I certainly don't want our son to take class after class from professors who insist that students parrot the professors' viewpoints to get a good grade.

Overall, that hasn't happened to our son ... much ... although it has happened in 2-3 of his classes over the past 2 years. What surprised me is that this is about the same ratio of liberal idealogue teachers that our son had in his conservative private high school classes. So, anecdoctally, our experience is that teachers across the board are more liberal and approximately 10-15% of them let it affect the way they teach their classes.

On a brighter note, our son had one professor who made his liberal views known, insofar as they were relevant to the class subject matter, but who also encouraged students to take a contrary position. The top grades in the class went to conservative students, not to the ones who regurgitated the professor's views. Based on our son's reports, however, this experience is probably uncommon.

Not surprisingly, bias is less pronounced in the business school than in liberal arts. Perhaps you are correct that parents and students need to rise up Dartmouth-style and take back the colleges. I think it may be more practical, however, to steer our children into disciplines that accept conservative views, e.g., business school, engineering, and maybe the sciences. In my view, that's an effective way to put our money where our mouths are.

6 AVI,

Excellent comment. I especially liked your concluding paragraph and I think it bears repeating:

"Don't be fooled. Not only are academics not above the same prejudices common to the rest of mankind, but they are exquisitely well-defended against learning anything from those they feel are their inferiors."

7 If you would feel more comfortable if your kids were being indoctrinated by right-wing conservatives, why don't you send them to a right-wing institution to get their education? If there are a left-wing nutters or incompetents on the faculty, your kids should have the good sense to ignore them, if you have raised them properly. If not, well, I guess that's the breaks.

I'm afraid I don't see why this is even an issue, let alone a problem.

8 Jassalasca Jape,

If I understand your reasoning, shouldn't you or your kids be willing to attend right-wing colleges? After all, if you've been raised right, you should do fine.

9 JJ left off the third option--not left-wing indoctrination, not conservative indoctrination...but no indoctrination where students and faculty are allowed to freely discuss ideas without threats of grades, jobs, or ridicule. That's a concept that liberals can't accept, as colleges have become breeding grounds for their movement.

10 Some thoughts:

1. Walk through the faculty parking lots (if you have them) at your college/university. Check the bumper stickers. This, of course, is hardly scientific but I note more Left Causes than Right. BTW, one that has now mostly disappeared is: Save Tibet. How, EXACTLY, were the Left going to do that...what was the plan?

2. Peek into faculty offices (colleges/universities) and you also get a feel for their politics. As stated earlier, there is less of this in the "hard" sciences than in Liberal Arts - Humanities. Some folks put newspaper articles and cartoons on their doors.

One example: I know of a faculty member at a college with Che on his office door (among many other things..Castro..). Inside the office is the flag of old Soviet Union. Yep. I wonder whether the Gulag was all that much better than Hitler's concentration camps. This faculty type also had a photo of Stalin. Is this funny? Was it a joke? Your tax dollars at work. Do college/university types actually do much reading outside their disciplines...or even within them? Do they come to realize than very many of other faculty are Lefties and so embrace that as people want to "fit in"? Damned if I know.

11 As someone who has taught in the "academy" both full time and part time for over 18 years, I know for a fact that a lot of my "comrades" are of the lefty persuasion. Many of them go to great lengths to keep thier politics out of the classroom, the majority however, do not.

But, since I'm a righty, and since I'm in the "academy" and James says that college professors teach "from an educated point of view" I would guess that James is saying that it is ok for me to indoctrinate my students. I won't, but thanks for permission James.

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