1 So, GM, can Ron Paul count on your vote on Tuesday? 

2 Ogre, can Iget back to you on that on sayyyyyy. Wednesday, March 5, 2032?

3

Can you get back to me just a little bit earlier? 

Come on, upset the apple cart a little! 

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1 Man. William F Buckley dies, and no shout out? Not even a whisper?
What kind of conservatives are you?

2 I did see your comment on another post below, Jim, and I did make a simple post in his honor below this one.  But, I was out of town yesterday and didn't have access or time to address Buckley's passing.  Also, I don't feel qualified to do the man justice.  He was a great conservative and his contributions to political discourse can't adequately be expressed by me.  I'll let others handle the laurels.  Buckley will be missed.

3 Whoops! I am an idjit, Woody.

4 No, Jim, you're just a Dodgers fan who votes for Democrats.

5 Only the part about the Dodgers is true. I've switched my party allegiance to the All Night party.

6 Wow, 3 runs in the bottom of the ninth to beat the Braves, 5-4.

We're off and rolling, Woody.

7

I'm glad that baseball season is starting.  I commented the other night how this was a terrible time with football over and baseball not started.  I only get involved with basketball during March madness.  I dropped my hockey tickets two years ago, but I did renew my Braves tickets.  On the Braves web site, they have a countdown clock until opening day--now just 31 days.

I see that this is the last spring training for the Dodgers at Dodger Town in Florida, as they will move next year to Arizona.  The Braves will also move their AAA affiliate to a suburb in 2009, so sending players up or down is just a commute.

Ronald Reagan was a baseball fan.

 

8 Too bad there aren't any tapes of him from when he announced games he was reading off the wire. I believe he did the crack of the bat himself.

9

I seem to remember a story where the wire went down when Reagan was doing one of his "live on-site broadcasts."  It's sketchy, but I think that he made up some innings until the wire was restored. 

I heard about others doing the same thing, and one guy had the score higher than it really was, so he resorted to saying that they took away some runs.  Another time, a broadcaster had the wrong team coming to bat when the wire came back, so he said that it was a first in baseball for a team to bat twice in a row.

Jim, did you listen to Reagan's message above?  He could just about do the same one today.

10 I'm using a computer at work that has no sound.

11

Jim, well, look at his picture and tell me what you think.  A picture is worth a thousand words.

It turns out that the Braves lost the Spring training game to the Dodgers because the Braves aren't trying.  http://rowlandsoffice.typepad.com/weblog/2008/02/bad-signs.html

 

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1 The wonderful, fantastic, amazing Democratic Congress for a little  over a year now and the economy  the worst in ....? They sure work fast.

2

The 12th commandment of the Republican Party is:

Thou Shalt Not Accept Responsiblity for What Happens on Your Watch.

 

 

3

I said it when Clinton was President and I'll say it now:  "The President of the United States has very little effect on the economy.  Blaming or congratulating a president for the state of the economy is as fruitless as spitting into the wind; and just about as effective."  Of course, that never stops the left or the right from trying to take responsibility for the economy, or push  the responsibility onto the "enemy."

Take a real look at the way the Republicans spent like drunken sailors, and take a look at the way the Democrats are doing the exact same thing.

Ropers corillary to McLovin's "12th Commandment for the Republican Party" is that "Little minds leap to blame the other guy FIRST."

4 McLovin must believe that we can tax our way into lower prices and prosperity.

5 McLovin - The Dems said they had a 100 day plan to save the world and create heaven on Earth. I'm still waiting.

6

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=aFyT0fu5KFeM

Exxon Profit Rises as Oil Surges Toward $100 a Barrel

"Profit for all of 2007 was $40.6 billion, topping Exxon Mobil's own record for full-year earnings by any U.S. company. "

Somehow, I don't think they're suffering too much.  Exxon could pay the whole $18 billion by themselves and still have more cash on hand than they could possibly know what to do with.

7

Moose, did you know that EXXON alone pays more taxes than the top 50% of individual taxpayers put together?  Maybe I should say that they pass along those taxes in higher gas, which is the truth.

8

The president has little direct effect on the economy but has an enormous impact on framing discussions and shaping the outlook.

Why do you think bond traders hang on every word the president utters. They know the president is key to shaping the economic agenda and, long term, to determing the outcome.

GM has overlooked the role of leadership.

Presidents cannot be effective leaders unless they insist on taking responsiblity, even for things they don't fully control.

Clinton stepped up and publically accepted responsibility for the economy and this inspired confidence in his leadership. He didn't try to blame Reagan or Bush for the massive deficits he had to pay down, even though they were clearly their fault. This is what leaders do: they accept responsibility for fixing things, even when they haven't directly caused a problem.

Granted, that's politics, not policy and the presidents powers to steer the economy are limited. But I would argue that Bush has squandered his by allowing his overall credibility to dwindle to dangerously low levels.

His comments on the economy have tracked those on the war in Iraq--a long, unbroken record of unwarranted optimism. When he says he thinks the economy's doing a "heckuva job" no one believes him. That's not leadership and that's not good for the country. Clinton did a lot better on that score.

9

McLovin, you have GOT to be kidding me.  Framing a discussion counts more than the FACTS about a discussion?  Oh PUH-LEZE!!!

"Clinton stepped up and publically accepted responsibility for the economy..." 

What planet were you living on in January - September, 2001 when Clinton (both of them) blasted Bush for the poor performing economy when the problems that the economy had (at least those not exacerbated by 9/11) from the burst bubble of the Clinton's years of "exuberance?"

Tell your tales to someone who doesn't remember beyond the last two years!

10

GM, I don't recall Clinton blaming Bush in September 2001.

Perhaps you've misunderstood criticism of tax cuts with blame for the slowing economy. Can you cite any examples of what you're talking about?

I do recall Bush's supporters blaming Clinton for the bad economy under Bush. That's still happening today.

Republicans never accept responsibility for anything that happens on their watch. Even 9/11 is supposedly Clinton's fault. The failure in Iraq? Blame the news media, of course.

Like I said. Republicans only rarely accept responsiblity for anything that happens on their watch, unless it's good, of course. I think you can say the same for Democrats, of course, to be fair.

And GM has also misunderstood my comments. I in no way suggested that framing matters more than facts. I simply said that presidents have the power to frame the discussion of the economy, which is important.

 

 

11 FACT:  When Clinton left office, the nation was officially in a recession.

12 e. nonee moose and McLovin - Once again, the all saving Democratic Congress has been in power for over a year now and the economy continues to slip. How is taxing Exxon, et al going to help the average American? It ain't.

Making the cost of operation increase for Exxon sure isn't going to lower gas prices! The only thing it will do is make a few imbeciles feel good because they're "hurting" some big corporation that is self-supporting and runs more efficiently than our government.

And, what's Congress's big issue? Steroids in baseball and investigating Roger Clemens. Give me a break!!!

13 This was a topic at dinner.  The consensus was that the more stupid things which occupy Congress, the better, so that they can't do more damage on important things.

14

Woody: so are you with GM in believing that presidents have no responsibility for what happens to the economy on their watch?

Or are you suggesting that Clinton should accept responsiblity for the state of the economy on his watch?

Only in the most technical sense was the economy in recession in the final months of the Clinton administration. There is a ongoing debate among economists about whether it was a recession even under the technical definition of two successive declines in the growth rate.

But it is good to compare the economic performance of Clinton to Bush or Reagan, for that matter.

Clinton presided over the longest series of continuous growth in American history. More jobs were created under Clinton than at any time in American history. The average quarterly GDP growth was more than 20 percent faster under Clinton than under Reagan, and about 50 percent faster than under Bush, so far.

Do the math, Woody. The economic performance under Clinton was spectacular. You can argue that he had nothing to do with it, in which case your point about slowing growth in the final quarters of his administration is irrelevant, but you can't deny that the performance was by far better than under any Republican administration in our lifetime.

 

 

15

McLovin, I suspect then that you will read ALL of these articles:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20227 

“All I know is 18 months ago, we had a surplus"
- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.

“These people ran on responsibility, but as soon as you scratch them
they go straight to blame,'' Clinton responded in a recent television
interview. ''Now, you know, I didn't blame his father for Somalia. I
didn't do that."
- Former President Bill Clinton

Stiglitz Discredited Democrats' Claim That Bush Administration Is
Responsible For Recession. Stiglitz noted that during the Clinton
Administration "the groundwork for some of the problems we are now experiencing was being laid. Accounting standards slipped;
deregulation was taken further than it should have been; and corporate greed was pandered to ...."
(Joseph Stiglitz, "The Roaring Nineties," The Atlantic Monthly, 10/02)
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research030803.htm

“Under the Clinton Administration, the markets had been booming. We saw growth in an unprecedented way and we expected - everyone expected - that growth to continue. But that's not what happened. What happened instead was over the last 18 months, that $16.4 trillion pie has shrunk to $11.9 trillion. We've lost $4.5 trillion in market capitalization in just 18 months.” [Congressional Record, 9/18/02] U.S. Senate
http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1999/ec092402.htm 

I won't do any more research for you, I can't help it if you don't remember how the dems trashed Bush I also will note that the Repubs have trashed dems... BOTH are wrong, the Prez DOES NOT HAVE THAT MUCH POWER.... PERIOD!!!!

16

Mac, I stated a fact.  You drew your own conlusions from it.  Yes, we were technically in a recession when Clinton left office.  There is no confusion about that.  It's a fact!  You are among the crowd who doesn't know what the definition of "is" is.  

If Clinton wants to take credit for growth, then let him take credit for leaving office with us in a recession.  

However, I don't consider the dotcom bubble to be a result of Clinton economics.  It's luck in the timing of his presidency and Bill Gates should get most of the credit--and, Al Gore for inventing the internet.  

I don't blame Bush for the economic diaster following 9-11.  It's amazing, frankly, that our country rebounded as it did...and, we didn't tax ourselves into recovery but gave tax breaks.

Also, despite your wish and the claims of liberal media, we are not in a recession right now, technically or otherwise, although such talk undermines confidence and can create one, as is intended.

You're really not very good at arguments.  You just alter the discussion and play loose with the facts.  Ann Coulter must have met you.   'How To Talk To A Liberal (If You Must)'

17

Let me draw an analogy....  If a pitcher has some good innings and gets bat support, he might have a 5-0 lead in the sixth inning.  But, then he gives up some walks, hits a batter, is charged with a wild pitch, gives up some bloopers, and then someone knocks a grand slam...well, now he has lost his five run lead and is behind by four runs.  He's pulled, and the ball is turned over to a reliever, who has to fight to get back the lead.  Should the starter get credit for a win in that case?

It's not selected accomplishments in the middle innings that count.  It's who's ahead when you leave the game.

18

Economic growth under Clinton averaged about 3.8 percent a year, higher than any president since Johnson. Personal income grew 50 percent faster than under Bush I and TWICE as fast as under Bush II, so far. More jobs were added to the economy than at any time in American history.

This isn't baseball, Woody, it's math. Do the math and get back to me.

If you knew anything at all about economics, you would know the dot.com bubble did almost nothing to contribute to economic growth.

Soaring stock prices doesn't add anything to economic growth. Sure, it gives people confidence and THAT helps the economy, but the dot.com bubble itself adds nothing.

To suggest that the record period of growth under Clinton is the result of the dot.com bubble is to be ignorant of basic economics..

19 Again, Mac.  I've likely had a lot more economics courses than you have, but surely you're the expert.  The dotcom growth provided a lot of jobs and wealth that eventually was flushed, but that has nothing to do with jobs and wealth according to you.  I'll go back to baseball.  Clinton left the mound with the team behind, but he deserves the win for what he did in the middle innings.  

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1

Ironic that awareness of 1984 is questioned.  In Orwell's book it was believed that he that controls the past also controls the future.  Consequently great efforts were made by the ruling authorities to destroy the past by rewriting history to satisfy the dictates of Big Brother. 

Ron Brown

Pittsburgh, Pa.

2

GM claims there's some kind of "anti-Western" agenda in American public schools.

What's anti-Western about Bill Clinton, Maya Angelou and Phillis Wheatley?

It is a shocker, though, that you son's history textbook only included one page on World War II. What can you say about it in a single page?

In reality, all history textbooks are flawed and the amount of time available to the average high school student to learn history is woefully inadequate.

If I were teaching history in high school, I'd make clear that the most important thing to understand is that we are only scratching the surface in our textbooks and other materials. To know and understand history requires far more in depth study and focus than are practical for high school students.

Given GM's biases, I assume he would prefer high schools teach the "facts" that he believes support a right-wing worldview.

 

 

3 There has been a massive coverup but the 'I have a dream' speach was stolen, not written by MLK. I know i'm not supposed to say anything bad about a dead man, but then I see him as  the biggest con man to hit this country. that is until B Hussein Obama.

4

In Orwell's 1984, the government destroys written evidence of history it doesn't like.

 

On this blog, GM bowdlerizes excerpts to destroy evidence of history that contradicts his partisan claims.

 

The link cited in his post above isn't to the study itself, but rather to a USA Today report on the study. The report includes the following lines:

 

``51% knew that the controversy surrounding Sen. Joseph McCarthy focused on communism.''

 

``88% knew the bombing of Pearl Harbor led the USA into World War II''

 

Why did GM edit out those stats?

 

Moreover, the report says:

 

``The nation's current focus on improving basic reading and math skills in elementary school might only make matters worse, giving short shrift to the humanities — even if children can read and do math.''

 

   Could it be that the report actually contradicts GM's talking point about how liberals have taken over education? So his response was to cut out the parts he didn't like, just like the government did in 1984. Beautiful…

5

First of all, let me posit that my commenters McL... and Hal have a deficiency in reading comprehension.  They must have gone to the schools that they claim are terrific in terms of teaching humanities etc.  Had they better comprehension of what they read, or, better yet had they not their own biases to overcome, they would have noted that the article is authored by and the point of view is WOODY's. 

Woody and I don't see eye to eye on education in many respects.  I do however note that we also do agree in many respects. I also don't censor what the Woodster chooses to write about. 

I attended school from 1952 (first grade) through '64 (H.S.) and obtained my Bachelors degree in 69, masters in 73 and an additional 30 hours grad work between 78 and 94 just for the fun of attending school.  I also taught at the University level from 1987 through 2005 (till sidelined by cancer).  I can state, categorically that the college freshman of the last dozen years was less prepared than the average high school freshman or sophomore when I was in high school.  I have had some grad students who couldn't spell or put 4 interconnected sentences together to save their lives.  I've had college seniors who read at a 8th grade level, if that.  I have had grad students fail take home exams where all 100 questions were taken directly from the chapters indicated because they lacked the ability to discern what the question was asking. 

I won't go on and on about the the educational problems of today, some of it is directly due to the Teachers Unions protecting incompetent teachers, but most are dedicated, hard working and very competent.  I won't blame the parents, though it is difficult for me to imagine parents who cannot fathom the need to monitor the students work, take an interest in their education or meet with the teachers and acknowledge that their kid was a brat and not attack the teacher for "having it in for little Johnny."  My beloved daughter is a teacher, as was my sister and my mother and I've heard the horror stories from all three about the difficulties of getting students to study or the parents to get involved. 

Of course, without parent involvement, and a thorough review of texts, any publisher can add any detail to any text they wish, and most parents won't know, because they can't be bothered.

Hal, McLovin, you both have a D - on your reading skills and a flat F for your bias control abilities.

6

GM: Maybe you should consider removing the "I am GM Roper and I Approve This Message'' tagline. Whatever you might say about my reading comprehension, you might consider that your failure to understand, apparently, the meaning of those words raises questions about your own.

I don't doubt, however, that the bottom end of the lowest common denominator for school kids is lower today than it was in the 1950s and 1960s.

A large part of that is simple demographics In those days, the poorest people were less likely to even send their kid to school, while the lower middle class was much less economically and socially precarious than it is today:

The key is that in the 1950s and 1960s, American manufacturing still had a magnificent edge in terms of cost and technical development over all global rivals. That meant that we could have a large number of low and medium-skill jobs that paid wages that were good enough and steady enough to allow a single wage earner to support the whole family.

The vast majority of today's families, especially poor families, can only get by if both parents work. This leaves a lot less time and energy for helping kids with homework and, just as important, means the kids fend for themselves after school--to often that means they play video games or hang out with older kids until the parents get home.

It's just silly to blame every little thing on liberals. I wonder why wingnuts never seem to get bored with that.

7

In looking at the fonts, was Hal E. Burton's comment on #4 written on a typewriter, and how did he do that?  It's like Dan Rather, having a document prepared by a computer that is almost passable for being typed.

Hal, the article only led me to write about a problem in education.  The ideas in the post were not limited to that one article.  If you want more evidence of the failures of public schools, it shouldn't take thirty seconds, but everyone I know is already aware of them.

It's been a while, but I remember when Stanford was under great pressure by the liberals to drop Western Civ and replace it with World History, as if Western Civ was a white man's culture that is no better than the rest.  Suddenly schools everywhere were copying them and changing studies to empahsize other cultures at the expense of dropping important issues in our own.

Further, the California Textbook Committee (very liberal) is the largest purchaser of textbooks in the nation and calls the shots on what publishers offer to the rest of the nation.  If something is not multi-cultural enough, then that publisher is going to be hurt, so left-wing it is.  This extends beyond history books and even goes into math books--yes, it's true, even though that took some creativity.

Thankfully, my sone had a teacher who he said was a lot like me and whose father was a CPA, so he covered U.S. history from handouts that he had prepared over the years, which were more scholarly and complete--even though Bill Clinton's full page picture was left out.

8 You know, I'm going to miss William F. Buckley. Whatever the political stripe, the guy had a brain.

9

I grew up in a conservative household. Dad hated Kennedy and his view on Nixon was "he didn't do anything everyone else isn't doing.''

School was conservative too and everything from the Pledge of Allegiance to the history of Vietnam as a noble cause bred the assumption that America was always the good guy, without question, beyond question.

When I got to college, I started reading beyond the textbook. At that time, I was rigorously apolitical and focused pretty tightly on sports, girls and parties. But just in the course of spending more time studying, I happened to start reading books about poverty in America and so on.

I was shocked, and really dismayed, to learn that, in fact, America was not blameless in all matters geopolitical. We lied. We cheated. We killed because we could and for reasons that were far less holy than I had always assumed.

I was still naive, of course, having just begun on my journey toward a real education (and away from the fake one obtained in high school).

As a result, I became something of a left wingnut. America was the god that failed. We weren't perfect and, in fact, much of the history taught in high school was actually fraudulent. The Communists didn't start the war in Vietnam. The Soviet Union wasn't behind every civil war in the world. Communists were not lurking in every newspaper, library and Hollywood movie set, waiting to take over the government.

So, in my naive way, I assumed that if the right wing pablum delivered in high school was wrong, all the counter information must be right.

By the time I exited the university system, I had begun to have a broader view and understanding of the flow of history. I was still mostly a left wingnut, but I had just begun to start to understand that objecting to demonization of, for example, Nicaragua's government, didn't have to be the same as supporting Nicaragua's government.

Most university students follow a similar path: they get angry that the history they were taught in high school is risibly lop-sided in favor of America, and react by focusing on their newly acquired evidence that the establishment line is bullshit. Then, eventually, they learn to take a more nuanced view and to appreciate the complexity and focus on dilineating shades of gray, rather than black and white.

The point of all this is that lop-sided pro-American history lessons are the single biggest reason for left wingnuts. It sets up a straw man that a good number of people never let go of all their life. They stroll right into adulthood thinknig that because the U.S. is far less holy than advertised, it must be evil.

 

10 I'm impressed that as many kids know about McCarthyism as do. The Pearl  Harbor knowledge doesn't surprise me because of the Ben Afleck movie and many kids have relatives who were alive at that time.

I'm seriously disappointed that they did so poorly in identifying when the Civil War occurred.

I looked up the study report http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.27576,filter.all/pub_detail.asp 
there were some significant  differences between kids with college educated parents and those without which shows the importance of parents in education.

11 McLovin, I see flaws in what you were taught in your higher education, which is where the left-wing ideology started and worked its way down.  But, thanks for sharing why you went astray.

12

What ``flaws'' were those, Woody?

As I mentioned, my discovery that real American history wasn't as glorious and one-sided as presented in high school came from reading books on my own, not from any classes at all in university.

I do recall from college that my economics professor was more or less obsessed with proving that socialism was bad. When I transferred from junior college to university, I found the same thing: the economics professor made wild claims like: auto safety would improve if there were daggers mounted onto the steering wheel, so seat-belt laws are counterproductive, as they encourage risk taking.

But I freely chose to attend a private university that was openly committed to right-wing christian values. I had been an enthusiastic believer before enrolling there and much of what I saw--the hypocrisy and unexamined assumptions--turned me off of the religion completely.

I'd be interested to hear about your educational background, Woody, and how you ended up becoming a right-winger. Did you get it straight from your parents? Pick it up in college? Discover it in later life?

 

 

13

I should add:

At the right-wing university, I minored in political science and as part of that took a class on the history of socialism. The professor was a brilliant orator and made great sport of smacking down the many and vocal Reaganites in the class. He also told a good story.

He had traveled widely as a scholar, including to countries then known as the Eastern Bloc. He had become friends with a high-level government official/academic in Czechoslovakia and one day had been discussing with him the education of their children. The Czech said surely he would send his son to university in Paris, even though the expense would be great. The American professor was shocked. "Why would you send him to the Sorbonne, a citidel of capitalism, when you could send him for free to the University of Moscow, where he will study with the finest minds in all of the Soviet sphere.''

``I want to make sure he's a good communist,'' the Czech replied. ``If I send him to Moscow, he will surely rebel, like all students do, and come to despise the Soviets and communism. If he goes to Paris, he will just as surely rebel, but against capitalism and the Western bloc.''

 

 

 

14

McLovin: I minored in political science and as part of that took a class on the history of socialism. The professor was a brilliant orator and made great sport of smacking down the many and vocal Reaganites in the class.

Well, there's a big problem right there.  How can you respect a teacher and his views when he clearly used his position as a bully pulpit to humiliate students who were right but had not learned how the skill of debating and were afraid to go so far with him?

Mac, your views are far enough left to show that your education is either incomplete or that your experiences were abnormal.

It's okay to be proud of the U.S., which has maintainied freedom throughout the globe and is the most generous nation for countries in need.

To answer your other question, I have been realtively conservative my whole life.  My mom was active in the Republican party on the state level, when that wasn't popular, and I used to be one of the kids who would hang around the mall parking lot asking people if I could put Republican bumper stickers on their car.  One of my grandfathers hated Roosevelt and was active in negotiating coal mining cortract with John L. Lewis, who learned to hate Roosevelt himself.  I respected my grandfather and learned a lot from him.  My other grandparents died before I was born and my Dad was more concerned with making a living than elections, so they weren't much of an influence on me over political issues.  However, my dad was a WWII veteran, and I heard stories about the Japs and Germans and that Democrats always got us into wars and the Republicans would get us out.  I also never cared what people thought of me, so I said what I believed without worrying about being accepted in a group of liberals.  College had absolutely no effect on my politics.  I majored in accounting and that's what we studied--not how to hate America.  We in the School of Commerce used to laugh at the hippies.  So, you might say that I turned out almost perfect.

15

No one is prouder of America than I am, but I suspect I'm proud of exactly the same things you despise, Woody.

American universities are the envy of the world, drawing some of the very best students from every corner of the earth. That is largely because of our tradition of academic freedom and that same tradition leads to professors being willing to criticize the U.S. government and present history as they see it, not as the government would like to have it seen.

I'm proud of the fact that America has a long history of military restraint. Episodes like Iraq are actually an aberration, as was the Vietnam war, and a temporary lapse in judgment that doesn't reflect longstanding American ideals or values. There were always be people who like war and demand more of it, but, fortunately, in America they have historically lost out politically.

I'm proud of the fact that most Americans embrace multiculturalism, meaning they are willing to work to understand other cultures on their own terms, without letting value judgments impede their understanding. They can do this because they are confident enough in their own value system not to be threatened by an open-minded approach to learning new things and incorporating good ideas, while rejecting bad ones.

I'm proud of the abolitionists and the civil rights crusaders who ultimately defeated the conservatives (like William F. Buckley) who opposed equal rights for Afro-Americans and other non-caucasions. I'm proud of the Americans who were big-minded enough to see past the racist rhetoric of the Strom Thurmonds and George Wallaces of the day.

I'm proud that most Americans oppose torture and understand why it is inimical to a free society and why the state should never have such awful power over any individual in any circumstance. I'm proud that Americans oppose the kind of prison without trial the Bush administration is now carrying out in Guantanamo. These Americans, a majority, understand that jurisprudence isn't a "nicety'' granted to those priviledged with American citizenship, but a human right "endowed by the creator.''

And as for the professor "bullying" the students. No professor should be under any pressure whatsoever not to challenge students as rigorously as possible. And this he did. The truth is these students were utterly ill prepared to discuss the issues they were bringing up. They accepted the mainstream media's praise of Reagan at face value and, therefore, were totally taken by surprise when presented with counter facts. It was quite funny to observe this in action.

 

16

McLovin, your last sentence speaks volumes.  Liberals do enjoy hurting people who disagree with them.  The viciousness of the last eight years is an example.   

Also, don't assume that what you learned was all correct.   A lot of people believed The NY Times, but now only 24% of Americans have a favorable view of paper according to a recent poll.  Maybe your sources were biased and you didn't have a solid enough foundation to see it, and now you're trapped in that mindset.

17

Woody; where are you getting that people in the class I attended were "hurt."

There were being helped in one or both of two ways: One, they were enlightened to the fact that they weren't very well informed about the basis of their own political views. Two, they can't expect every professor to agree with their political biases.

As for the New York Times, if Americans view it so unfavorably, why in the world is the wingnutosphere so obsessed with it?

If Americans don't care what the liberal media says and don't trust it, why do conservatives keep blaming the liberal media for leading people astray?

18

No one likes to be humiliated in front of their peers, such as by the professors, and the political views of the students, especially if they were consistent with Reagan, may not have been wrong.  I've seen and heard about bullying by professors.  My own kids would listen and regurgitate what the professor wanted to hear rather than get into a fight with him that they couldn't win and that would hurt their grade.  (Yes, professors can be vindictive.)  If you can't see that, they you have no sensitivity or you're vindictive yourself.  Any don't be so sure that your professor was so brilliant.  You know the saying, "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach."

The NY Times poll is a snapshot in time.  It's ratings can go up and down.  We're concerned about it and other left-wing media because a lot of people still read and put faith in the paper.  Why are you obsessed with FOX?

On  my assignment above on "why I'm a conservative," I left off that I grew up under very corrupt and incompetent Democatic elected officials, particularly on the city and state levels.  Democrats are populists, and they will take any position that gets them elected without any convictions.  Finally, the people caught on and threw the Democrats out, and the Republicans brought prosperity and respectability back to the area.

19

You sound confused Woody.

You say the NY Times is unpopular and outside the mainstream, yet ``a lot of people still read and put faith in the paper.''

Can't really have it both ways, can you?

If the NY Times is out of touch, it can't have a significant effect on the mainstream of America. If it has no significant effect on the mainstream, why all the concern?

Your theory just doesn't stack up. Either the NY Times is more popular, more mainstream and more influential than you can admit, or it matters a lot less than you'll admit.

20

My view is that the New York Times is the "paper of record" because that's exactly what its readers demand. If it didn't serve the readers' demand for fast, accurate, comprehensive news, it wouldn't survive as the leading U.S. newspaper.

The U.S. newspaper market is among the most free and competitive in the world. The American people are among the most free thinking, best educated in the world. Given those two facts, no newspaper could survive if it didn't represent the basic thinking of its readers and, indeed, advertisers.

What about New York's conservative newspapers? What about the New York Post?

Why aren't the Woodys of the world happy to read and support and refer to the Post?

The answer is simple: The Post doesn't compete with the New York Times for real news. It focuses on scandal and sensation and local oddities. It isn't a paper of record because it just doesn't invest time and money to cover stories that aren't sensational enough to grab readers. Yet it has a huge readership and after many years of subsidy by conservative billionaire Rupert Murdoch, it appears to be profitable. The bottom line is that conservative readers don't really want news. They want entertainment and commentary that reaffirms their ideology.

Note that every successful conservative media enterprise is focused on commentary, not straight news. Fox News Channel beats CNN, but not in news coverage. It's talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity that bring in the conservative audience and the ratings.

Why do conservatives prefer commentary to news?

This, more than anything, explains why conservatives feel the media is so biased, whereas liberals don't see that at all.

The news itself--the facts showing things going so badly in Iraq, manmade climate change, a looming recession, evolution, the decline of American prestige globally and so on, all point away from conservative ideology.

So a conservative reader or viewer of straight news is somewhat justified in feeling under seige. Their views are under constant attack by the facts on the ground.

My aunt is a lifelong conservative and Republican. She told me: I listen to both sides. I listen to NPR and Rush Limbaugh. So in her mind, Limbaugh is somehow a counterpart to NPR. But of course the two are completely different. Limbaugh reports no news whatsoever. His program is exclusively unopposed commentary on news that's been reported already on NPR, the New York Times, etc.

NPR is 90 percent straight news. To be sure, all news, including NPR, includes bias. But there is a wide difference between biased straight news and commentary. 

     Of course NPR comes off as more liberal than Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly. How could it be otherwise? Does anyone think straight news should fall into line with the nakedly partisan views of ideologues like Limbaugh or Hannity?

   That doesn't make NPR liberal, it makes NPR centrist.

    The Wall Street Journal offers another illustrative example. It's arguably the most influential newspaper in America and, indeed, the world. It's nationwide readership is over 1 million, roughly in the same category as the New York Times, but with far more influence because its readers are virtually by definition far above average financially.

    The WSJ editorial page is stridently conservative and unspairing in its criticism of liberals and Democrats. The new owner, Rupert Murdoch, has a long track record of steering his newspaper's coverage to favor conservatives. And there's nothing, per se, wrong with that. The WSJ editorial page caters to its readership. American conservatives have every right and reason to have a newspaper that represents their views and the WSJ is clearly that newspaper.

    Trouble is, the WSJ's straight news coverage is indistinguishable from that of the NY Times, Washington Post, or liberal media, as described by conservatives. How does that happen? Is there a conspiracy with the WSJ to keep conservatives out of the news section and in the commentary? Of course not, the simple fact is that news can't credibly be reported from the narrow ideological perspective offered by rightwing columnists and commentators. Readers wouldn't buy it and, the record shows, readers reject it when it's offered to them.

   So around and around it goes. Conservatives dominate newspaper and television commentary, thereby setting a narrow ideological frame for news, which then looks liberal, by comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

21

McLovin, there's no contradictions.  People may be upset with Microsoft but that doesn't stop them from using it.  The NY Times is the major paper of one of the world's major cities.  That alone gives it readership.  However, that doesn't mean that the people agree with the editorial decisions of the paper. 

But I really have to laugh when you write: <i>"Conservatives dominate newspaper and television commentary...."</i>

22

You still seem confused Woody.

You acknowledge that the NY Times is the major paper in the biggest city, but you don't acknowledge WHY it's the major paper.

Why isn't Murdoch's Post the major paper, or the New York Daily News?

The Microsoft comparison doesn't wash. If you want to use the vast majority of consumer application software, you have to use Microsoft. There's no choice.

If you want to read a paper other than the NY Times, there are several choices without effort or additional expense.

I do think I overstated that conservatives "dominate" newspaper and TV commentary. You'd need to add talkradio to get to "dominate." But it is safe to say that there are significantly more conservative commentators on TV and in newspapers and magazines than there are liberals.

A quick way to see this is to go to townhall.com and check their list of conservative pundits. Most of them have newspaper or magazine syndication deals and many of them either have spots or are regularly featured on TV chat shows.

If I were a conservative, I'd be asking why there's no successful conservative newspaper, instead of whining all the time that the most successful papers are liberal.

23 McLovin, you're impossible.  The media has been historically liberal with no other choices by conservatives.  Now that conservatives are getting choices, The NY Times and papers like it are suffering.  The Times has watched circulation plummet and has had to keep firing staff to stay going.  It's a trend that won't be reversed if they persist on their left-wing politics.  I don't even like their sports pages.

24

Also,

Two thirds of Americans - 67% - believe traditional journalism is out of touch with what Americans want from their news, a new We Media/Zogby Interactive poll shows.

The survey also found that while most Americans (70%) think journalism is important to the quality of life in their communities, two thirds (64%) are dissatisfied with the quality of journalism in their communities.

BTW, the original topic was "Education."

 

 

25

Woody, you're in denial about the New York Post and the New York Daily News and the Washington Times.

Those are all clearly right-of-center newspapers owned and operated by committed conservatives.

Why don't they have the national readership and prestige that the New York Times and Washington Post do?

Of course,  the New York Times has much greater respect and influence than the New York Post, but that's respect and influence it has won in a free market of ideas. Same goes for the Washington Post over the Washington Times.

Basically, Woody. You're a sore loser in the free market of ideas.

No one's stopping conservatives from making their own media. Indeed, the conservatives have their own media. Trouble is, it's second-rate and you know it.

So instead of whining about how liberal the media is, you should be asking yourself why conservative rivals are all second rate.

My view is that bias, be it conservative or liberal, is unimportant relative to accuracy and transparency. If the media are factually accurate and don't rely on anonymous sourcing, intelligent readers can see right through any biases, so the particular tilt of a piece of writing is inconsequential.

Moreover, it's virtually impossible to set objective standards for what is "biased" anyway. You say NY Times is left-wing, but that begs the question of to the left of what? The average American? But where is it written that a newspaper should craft its political views to match the theoretical "average" American.

I get a sense that Woody believes that because the NY Times is to his left, it is, therefore, left-wing.

Of course we know the NY Times supported the invasion of Iraq and published outrageously biased reports falsely reporting that Iraq had WMD. These were anonymous reports virtually dictated by Dick Cheney's office to Judith Miller, who wrote them in the usual way, as part a quid pro quo to maintain the access to Cheney that her position in the world of journalism required.

It's a free country. If conservatives fail in the news media, they have only themselves to blame.

26

Fine, Mac.  I'm not going to change your mind.  The NY Times is not liberal and the recent article on McCain was not a hatchet job.

27

My point, Woody, is that even if we could agree that the NY Times were liberal, that wouldn't give conservatives any right to complain.

And for the record, the McCain article was a hatchet job, just as were the many pre-war WMD articles. I've yet to see any liberal commentary that doesn't express disappointment with the NY Times as regards that McCain article. It's been widely condemned as a hatchet job in liberal circles.

I've yet to see any conservative commentator, not a single one, complain about Judith Miller's WMD propaganda spoon-fed straight from Dick Cheney's office into the NY Times. Not one complaint and that piece of propaganda led us straight into a disastrous war...

28

Mac:  "even if we could agree that the NY Times were liberal"

Then, it's not likely that we could agree on anything.

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There were being helped in one or both of two ways: One, they were enlightened to the fact that they weren't very well informed about the basis of their own political views. Two, they can't expect every professor to agree with their political biases.

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1

Us libs have sense of humor, er at least a few of us.  IMHO Huckabee is far and away the best-humored of the candidates..he even goes on the comedy (libtard) channel and more than holds his own.  Don't recall Thompson doing that.  Would that more candidates had that folksy charm.  Pretty funny about us libs depending on government support too!  I was only on it for a few years as a US Army officer and suppose I should be remorseful

2 Was watching it as it played, almost became a Huckabee supporter over it... LMAO... NOT!!! 

3 Huckabee is a very good actor.  Acting and politics are two skills that seem to go hand-in-hand.

4 Huckabee had a pretty funny skit on the Colbert Report, too.  Really, he's much better than anyone could have predicted at sketch comedy.

5 Hey, Moose.  This is the first time that I realized that you have a blog.  I don't know how I might have missed it before.  ...Now, I see that it is information about you.  Well, that's a start, but let us know if you need help writing anything since our views are so close.

6

<i>let us know if you need help writing anything since our views are so close.</i>

Well, perhaps you're really a comedian after all!  There's only one post because, quite frankly, it's the first time I've blogged in years so I'm pretty much starting over from scratch.  I left a link here because I knew you couldn't resist the temptation to drop in and see what's going on.  Will post more in the future.  You might be disappointed though as it's going to be much less political than you'd like, I'm afraid.

7 Less political is fine.  I have varied interests--from taxes, to physics, to history, to sports, to humor, etc.  Looking forward to it.  Let us know when you put up a new post.

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Interesting site you have.  I won't vote for Osama because his imitation of Elmer Gantry is really awful.  I've seen Nigerian email offers that have more credibility.  As for his wife, well when they made them they matched them.

 

On the flip side I won't be voting for that RINO McCain.  I get tired of all the war hero BS.  Exactly what was it he did that was heroic compared to the 2,000 other POWs?

 

And if I hear once again what a brillant guy Osama is I'll throw up.  My dog shows more indilligence and makes his intentions known more clearly and quickly than Osama without a telepromter.

2 Thanks Thomas, hope you'll be back often!

3

Hmmm.

The Democrats are "painting themselves into a corner'' because, wait for it, their nominee is TOO LIBERAL.

And, wait for it again, GM Roper, a rightwing blogger with GOP ads all over his site, WON"T BE VOTING FOR OBAMA. And that's supposed to somehow be persuasive?

I attended a wedding over the weekend and ended up seated at dinner with three other men, two of which were "lifelong Republicans." One, a retired Marine, said he would be voting for Obama because he thought the country needed a fresh approach and believed Obama could provide a break with the past divisions between liberals and conservatives.

I certainly think the former Marine's comments don't reflect a very careful study of events, but there you have it. And I have a feeling he's far from alone among "lifelong Republicans."

The other lifelong GOP guy said he would also vote for Obama, should he win the nomination. His reason was that he didn't want the Supreme Court to be packed exclusively with conservatives. Even though he's a Republican, he recognized the importance of spreading power out among political factions.

Again, I don't share that view of the judiciary's role, but I did take his comments as a further sign that a lot of Republicans are digging pretty deep for reasons to explain why they'll vote for Obama.

Reminds me of nothing so much as the many Democrats who felt they had to make up reasons to vote for Reagan. Most back then, as I recall, usually muttered something about Reagan cheerleading the country into better times somehow...

4

What a spectacular disappointment. Republicans fear they won't be able to get away with race-baiting the Democratic candidate.

It's funny and telling that they're worried this will throw them off their game.

5

With the race now including Nader, who doesn't think that Obama is even liberal enough for him, many left-wingers will decide to vote for the Green candidate.  Would that make them racist?

It's interesting that we'll have candidates who are white, green, and black--or, for the last one, should I say socialist red? 

6 Some commenters think that because I'm conservative, I'm automatically a republican.  They would be wrong!

7

"Maybe I shouldn't equate Liberalism with Democrats, there are after all a few stalwart Democrats that are conservative and who cringe when they hear Obama and Hillary Speak.  However, they can't speak out or go against the party line because they too want to be re-elected. "---GMR

 

Well not really related to the main point of your post, but since you mentioned it.

The fundamental problem with institutional 'democracy' is summed up precisely by your above observation. You even cite it a legitimate' defense' for behavior that otherwise would be censurable. If someone 'cringes' when they see Obama or Hillary, then they shouldn't be part of the process or the Party that supports them. I think English has a word for those who sell themselves for money an position. Some are just more honest about their roles.

There are far too few representatives who really want to to do something whatever the future costs, and far too many who 'want to be re-elected'. ALL they want is to be re-elected. If they can't even speak out in defense of what they supposedly believe, for fear of their political future, what difference between them and any other time serving bureaucrat or corporate functionary ?

But they are not supposed to be like these other drones. They are supposed to be 'leaders'.

For all the talk about corruption and special interests distorting the process, the process is ruined by precisely the types of people who gravitate towards it and are rewarded by the 'voters' as a result.

Obama promises he will clean up Washington. He's therefore automatically either a liar or a fool or most likely both. Reason enough to never vote for him. 'Liberal', or not.

Yes We Can !!

Reason enough to recoil from this guy. He frankly creeps me out the more I see of him.

 

ps --- For those commentators who think that Obama is a 'breath of fresh air'.

 

He's NOT.

And he won't get elected in November. Sorry to burst your bubbles so early in the cycle. Those polls that now favor him --- The important thing to note in them is that he can't break the 48% support barrier in a direct projected matchup. 48%. That's just about what EVERY Democrat can show in these early days in EVERY election. And this is his high-water point. The point before all his 'liberal' postions are piled atop one another to present a clear picture to the electorate. The point before more and more people wonder whether putting a boy into a man's job at a time of WAR is really such a great idea. The point before his 'religion' and his 'religious' backers are marched out for all to see. Anyone who gets Farahkan's fevered endorsement really does have some splainin' to do.  The point before he IS seen as the candidate of one particular group.

He's already lost. And it's not even March.

8 As you can see by comments three and four, someone who doesn't support the Messiah-Obama (No, I won't!  Or, as Science Fiction Author Eric Frank Russell once wrote in The Great Explosion:  "Freedom, I Won't") is already a racist.  You guys are so  predictable.

9

Thanks dougf, for that breath of "air."

The talking point is supposed to be Obama's "too popular" thus a sign that surely the American people are stupid.

But I see you're thinking outside the box with: Obama's already lost the election, i.e. Obama's ``too unpopular.''

Keep it coming! It's so fun watching Republicans lose.

They keep trying to retrofit the same talking points they used in 2000 and 2004, but they just aren't working this time around and won't.

 

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The dissapoinments for liberals just keep adding up.  Why do they hate the U.S. defending itself?  Do they think it's "not fair" unless we give our techonology to everyone?   Remember Liberals Laughing at "Star Wars?"

 

2

You may want to rethink that one GM.

Shooting down a disabled satellite is far too easy compared with downing an incoming enemy missile, especially when the enemy takes countermeasures.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel versus hitting one high-powered rifle bullet with another.

Star Wars may well work as an offensive technology and, in that, may be worth studying as long as we don't pour too much money into it. But scientists have long since debunked the idea that it could ever be an effective DEFENSIVE technology. The countermeasures, e.g. decoys, are just too easy.

3 If the military pursued the priorities of the liberals, they wouldn't even be able to shoot down one target--period, and this satellite would still be a threat.  Liberals oppose just about anything that has the word "military" associated to it.  Their arguments don't have to make sense or to be valid., which they rarely are.

4

I guess I'm not a liberal then.

I support research into space weapons, but I don't think it should be a priority and, at the moment, it should be suspended because we just can't afford that kind of exotic research.

My objection to "Star Wars'' has been the silly Reagan/Bush rhetoric claiming it would be a defensive weapon.

The offensive capabilities of any such weapon would be spectacular while as a defensive weapon it would be useful only against the extremely low-tech missiles.

Defense spending research and develop requires balance. Too much is simply wasteful and counterproductive. If that makes a liberal, than I surely am.

5 "the dissapoinments for liberals just keep adding up."

 Woodster, that's just funny on so many levels. How many previous tests have failed miserably, exactly?

6

McL... "You may want to rethink that one GM."

Actually not, if you take a look at the graphics noted at Fausta's Blog, you will see the difficulty of hitting an object at a closing speed of over 22,000 mph.  Especially when you have to insure that the two objects are at exactly the same place at the same time.  I'd think your knowledge of physics is somewhat lacking so you may want to rethink your position.

7

It appears to have been a "one shot, one kill" scenario and a direct hit in the fuel tank.  The Navy did a fine job of targeting the satillite.

Did you happen to hear all the scuttlebut about Russia, China and another of those pain in the butt countries mad about us shooting it down because they said we were doing it to destroy "spy secrets" and risking the debris hitting people to do it???  I have one thing to say about that.  "And your point would be...????"  I'm sure the fuel wasn't the only consideration.  I don't know of any "fuel type" that wouldn't "burn  up" reentering the atmosphere.  So, your thoughts GM???

Oh, and I want to send you my very best get well wishes!!!!

8 Hoosier Mom, from what I understand there was a fear that the tank
wouldn't burn up in re-entry, and hydrozine is some extremely nasty stuff.

9 This was a spy satellite that failed to reach proper orbit, and many classified components could have hit the Earth intact and be retrieved by our enemies.  If the Chinese want our technology, make them buy it from the Democrats. 

10

Mac:  My objection to "Star Wars'' has been the silly Reagan/Bush rhetoric claiming it would be a defensive weapon.

Decide for yourself, after reading Reagan's speech, whether it was he or McLovin who is silly.

Reagan's Address to the Nation on Defense and National Security March 23, 1983

What if free people could live secure in the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant U.S. retaliation to deter a Soviet attack, that we could intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies?

I know this is a formidable, technical task, one that may not be accomplished before the end of this century. Yet, current technology has attained a level of sophistication where it's reasonable for us to begin this effort. It will take years, probably decades of effort on many fronts. There will be failures and setbacks, just as there will be successes and breakthroughs. And as we proceed, we must remain constant in preserving the nuclear deterrent and maintaining a solid capability for flexible response. But isn't it worth every investment necessary to free the world from the threat of nuclear war? We know it is.

- - -

Mac:  The offensive capabilities of any such weapon would be spectacular while as a defensive weapon it would be useful only against the extremely low-tech missiles.

Like those of China, Iran, and North Korea?

11

Not to mention it sent an important, and much overdue signal to the Chinese.  Of course, now they will redouble their efforts, and we will need to redouble ours . . . and rocket scientists will have a job for years into the future.  Well, that is unless Obama dismantles the DoD, NASA, and the State Department.

Semper Fi

12

Of course that kind of weapons technology would have some practical applications, such as fending off the very minor, outlying threat of an intercontinental scud attack from Pyongyang.

But one difference between adults and children is that adults understand you have to make difficult choices in a world of scarcity.

For adults, the question isn't simply whether it would be good to have space weapons, but whether it's worth the sacrifices we'd have to make to get them.

At a moment when we're borrowing up to our eyebrows just to maintain a couple of wars against tiny bands of ragtag militia and fake religious gangsters, I think we just can't afford the luxury of spending much money on these kinds of weapons.

Let's figure out how to pay for the defense we need now before we go launching on major projects that have such distant possiblity for effective application.

13

McLovin, you're with the same crowd during the moon race who said that the U.S. shouldn't waste money on space but should spend it on people.  The techonologies developed in our space research have paid far greater dividends to mankind than throwing money at unappreciative people who use it once or waste it.

I'm sure that the people whose lives were saved in Israel from the Scud missiles appreciate the research that we had developed to that point.

 

14

Success requires making difficult decisions from among imperfect choices.

In a perfect world, there would be no problem about spending billions on star wars. Though in a perfect world, there'd be no need for such things.

Adults understand that you can't always get what you want. For adults, the question isn't whether there is any benefit to star wars, but whether the benefit outweighs the costs.

Children, on the other hand, only point to the benefits of getting what they want. They ignore the costs and just keep repeating the benefits to themselves and others.

 

 

15

Mac: Children, on the other hand, only point to the benefits of getting what they want. They ignore the costs and just keep repeating the benefits to themselves and others.

Mac, why didn't you tell us that you are a Republican?

One difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans want what is best for the country and Democrats want what is best for themselves as individuals.

 

16

Conservatives are in a perpetual battle to find and maintain a moral and fiscal blank check.

Note how many times they repeat: "We're in a war now" as if that justifies subverting the Constitution to spy on Americans, subverting treaty obligations to use torture and spending like drunken sailors, without any hint as to how we'll pay for it.

Without a horrific enemy, the right wing demands to curtail civil rights, expand government power and spend on the military without limits have no logic.

This is why so many right wing American's actually join bin Laden in trying to make his ragtag band of fake religious gangsters out to be some kind of massive global threat that's poised to take over the free world. This is why so many right wing Americans cannot even admit that moderate Muslims exist, let alone acknowledge their role on the front lines battling Muslim extremism.

Always be suspicious of people who demand blank checks.

17

Mac, you've diverted from dicussing the subject or answering our responses.   Now, you are simply cutting and pasting typical liberal and wrong characterizations of conservatives--very wrong. What we say is what we feel as individuals.  What you say is what you're told by the group with which you identity. 

Wouldn't it be better to stay on topic than to post bland attacks that you're regugitating?

18

Woody, you constantly depart from the subjects of posts. You do it here and on other blogs as well. You have no right whatsoever to criticize me for it.

You only try to bring that up because you have no other rational response to the points I've raised.

The concept of a blank check is completely relevant to Star Wars, anyway.

My criticism of Star Wars has been that it costs too much for the potential benefits. Part of my critique of that includes pointing out how right wing Americans are never willing to acknowledge that weapons spending could possibly be too much. They much prefer to argue that the enemy we face is really, really, really scary, so we have NO CHOICE but to spend ourselves into oblivion.

If you have a relevant point, Woody, make it. If not, you may want to consider leaving the conversation to those who do.

 

19

Mac, I suspect that I know who you, although you use a different name here.  At least I'm consistent in identifying myself.

Your response in No. 16 was nothing but a general criticism of conservatives that you likely save as a word document and use whenever you're out of ammunition.  When I bring it up, then you say that I'm guilty of it. 

Ann Coulter was right about talking with liberals.

"If you can somehow force a liberal into a point-counterpoint argument, his retorts will bear no relation to what you've said -- unless you were in fact talking about your looks, your age, your weight, your personal obsessions, or whether you are a fascist. In the famous liberal two-step, they leap from one idiotic point to the next, so you can never nail them. It's like arguing with someone with Attention Deficit Disorder." -- P. 3

Blank checks are what liberals think exist for all welfare programs, which never expire and are never capped.  At least a missile defense system shows results and has an end objective that can be measured and then is over.

 

 

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1 Honest to God, I look forward to the first time in my adult life seeing someone in the White House whose last name is NOT Bush or Clinton.

2 Moose, the 22nd Amendment for Presidential term limits has been abused by relatives continuing to carry the family banner in the White House.  In your own state, George Wallace had his wife Lurleen run for him when his term limits were up.  Hillary should be rejected for many reasons, but the attempted circumvention of term limits should be enough...and enough of the Clinton's is enough.

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4 I was also agreeing with Moose, which may cause him to change his position.

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